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Beware when building up strength in your hands...

Nov 22, 2008
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Everyone wants stronger better hands and there are lots of threads here to prove that. There are also lots of threads with players in pain and having problems.

Exercising your hands is exercising your forearms as well.

The muscle groups in your forearms along with the groups in your hands are the main areas of training. MUSCLES ONLY PULL, to this end there has to be two sets opposite each other. The muscles on the back of your forearm/hand pull your fingers open, the muscles on the opposite side pull them closed.
What we desire from training and exercise is the muscles to be strong and dextrous..like a gymnast, sprinter, racehorse, not like a weight lifter, lumberjack or a contestent in World Strongest Man. Exercises that just have squeezing as the main part will give you the muscle group of the second catagory, lots of power but not much dexterity. Exercises that combine squeezing with gentle stretching, dexterity, independent finger control, touch, stamina and good technique will bring you reward. Exercise should be PAIN AND STRESS FREE, IF IT HURTS STOP.

The purpose of exercise is to build stamina and dexterity.
Try these simple tests.
With your palm face up move your forefinger and touch the pad under your thumb. Then repeat with each finger in turn trying to touch the same part of the pad.
Did each of your fingers succeed? Did you thumb move to meet your ring and little finger?
Did your ring finger piggy back or pile up on top of your little finger.
Now try this, with all your fingers together close them in to the palm of your hand. Did they all stay side by side or did any try and sit on top of the others?
Did the ring finger and little finger try and go for the pad under the thumb and get in the way?
The fingers and the thumb are linked in this way that the way your hand is designed is for the all fingers to be able to contact the thumb when used individualy for dexterity, and spread across the palm for strength when together. It is these two areas we must address and seperate to a point, in order to exercise. As what we want is not natural to us there will be a price to pay at some point along the way, if not in later life.

A few good exercises in this area use squash balls, but not as you may think. squash balls come in different hardness so pick a soft set then move on to harder if you so wish.
1/ Roll the squash ball around in your finger tips. When you master this add another. The idea with two balls is NOT TO LET THEM TOUCH THE PALMS OF YOUR HANDS. In other word control and support them with your fingers only, a bit like Chinesse Stress balls, the principal is the same relaxing and stress free exercise.
2/ Squeeze the ball with your finger tips only is so simple its understated. When use squeeze with your fingertips only you exercise every muscle behind it back to the source..your forearm.
3/ Hold the ball in your palm with enough pressure from all your fingers and thumb. Now lift all your fingers away and stretch them gentley supporting the ball with just your thumb, repeat as desired. Using the same principal hold it now with just your forefinger and repeat. Once you master it repeat it with all fingers on your hand, giving each one a chance to hold the ball while the others gentley stretch.
The action you need to develop is one of lifting the fingers away from the neck, as holding it is natural and easy. Its is the hands ability to open and the fingers ability to move away from the fretboard that needs developing not its ability to return and press down, that will happen as a matter of course.
If you were just to squeeze the ball in the palm of your hand you are building a power grip, a grip that is able to hold and hang on, not one of dexterity. If you have weak hands to start with then this is a good exercise to combine with others.
As each set of exercises have different functions you should concentrate on your weakness and build it up to a level that you can then balance out with the other exercises you do. As i have stated before to students there is no point in a steel hammer head if the shaft is weak, so target your exercises then balance them out.

Physical strength in your fingers has little to do with effective bass playing.

Has i have stated you want stamina and dexterity exercises, whose side effect if you will is strength/power in your hands/fingers if you will. Another side effect of stamina and dexterity exercises is speed and fluincy, i know something many would like in there playing.

Some exercises have the negitive effect you desire.

As i have stated some exercises just build muscle power not dexterity. These exersices put stress and strain on your muscles causing damage so therfore pain. The old addage of "no pain, no gain" has no use here. Playing bass guitar is a physical exercise in itself, the muscles work hard and as a result the waste product of all the muscles energy is Lactic Acid. Problems occur when the Lactic Acid production is more than the removel, ie that burning sensation you get, pain or crap. Cramp is your muscles way of making you stop what your doing as it does not like it. Cramp is like a fuse in your amp, it is a tempory warning to make you stop before something major is damaged, as is pain. But if pain stays with you, you have done damage and need profesional help..seek it.

Your nervous system is part of you training.

All muscle activity is started by nerve impulse, there are two main groups of action, voluntary and involuntary. Involuntary muscles we have no control over like digetion, and heartbeat, but sometimes our voluntary muscles get them as in a spasm, usually in repsonse to pain or stress. If your nervous system cannot sent the messages your muscles will not respond. nerve ends are responsible for the last part of that message. Pain in your fingers is not neccesary where the damage is, its just where your feeling it. For instace a thin strap that cuts in to you neck and shoulder can give you problems in your fingers, a bit like standing on the middle of a long hose, you see the effect because the water flow is slow at the end, but it is not the end that is the problem, thats far away, because that where your appling the pressure.
Alcohol and drugs suppress the nervous system, as does stress in certain cases like worry. You can convince yourself you have a problem when you don't, your brain is only too happy to do as you want and release chemicals in to your system to achieve what you your thinking and worring about.

These are just a few of the main points an some exercise examples to consider, i'm sure you will find more and there will no doubt be more will be posted in reply to this thread.
In the end it is what you are capable of acheiving and being honest with your abilities. There is no guarantee to success of stress free better playing, i could mirror the training practices of top sportsman and not get the same results. The sports world is full of people who did not make it for one reason or another physicaly, weakness that was observed early on in there career and saw them by passed for others, or careers ended due to and injury that could not let them preform to the standard required. Illness, accident, inhereted there are many reasons why we all have different capabilites we can achieve. But we are bass players with different standards, music, techniques and goals all of which can be achieved in some form if we are honest in our abilities. A BASS PLAYER IS DEFINED BY THE WAY HE THINKS AND THE CHOICES HE MAKES IN HIS PLAYING.
 
i think alot if these exercises while useful are somewhat unnecessary since i think that many ppl are really great players without spending so much time on weird exercises like that
i, for instance, prefer investing all that time in just playing more and more songs and i find that the speed and dexterity comes with the playing
 
i think alot if these exercises while useful are somewhat unnecessary since i think that many ppl are really great players without spending so much time on weird exercises like that
i, for instance, prefer investing all that time in just playing more and more songs and i find that the speed and dexterity comes with the playing

Agreed.

And for skill-based sports and activities, nothing is better for improving at that sport or activity, than actually performing that sport or activity. In other words, rather than running laps to improve your tennis game, you're better off playing more tennis, or doing tennis drills.

The lifting weights analogy doesn't hold here... it takes a few ounces of pressure to pluck a string or fret a note. A child has sufficient strength.

Exercises are helpful to warm up your hands, but most people have limited practice time -- you're better off actually playing the bass IMO, than working your hands with other devices. Exercises are fine, but I would think that exercises that revolve around playing the bass are going to be more valuable than exercises based around *not* playing the bass.

Just my opinion though.
 
FYI i never said they didn't.
FYI their body shapes are completley different for athletes that do substantial weight training and exercise..think why?
As has been noted surely all the gymnast has to do to improve is just gymnastics and the sprinter just run?

think, if they didn't have some training routines for gymnastics and sprinting they wouldn't be getting to the absolute best of their ability... BUT these people are training to be absolute machines... I think if you do adequate exercise and stretching etc in the gist of a normal 'fit' person you should be able to play comfortably for a long time...

and yeah I've heard that body builders have so little dexterity they need help to a toilet... I honestly think its the biggest turn off ever seeing bodybuilders... just seems un natural...
 
think, if they didn't have some training routines for gymnastics and sprinting they wouldn't be getting to the absolute best of their ability... BUT these people are training to be absolute machines... I think if you do adequate exercise and stretching etc in the gist of a normal 'fit' person you should be able to play comfortably for a long time...

and yeah I've heard that body builders have so little dexterity they need help to a toilet... I honestly think its the biggest turn off ever seeing bodybuilders... just seems un natural...

Before the point is missed here, it is to involve exercise as part of not instead of. Daily life and exercise DOES NOT equipe your muscles and body to deal with playing bass guitar, there must be a trade off somewhere. To understand the benifits that can be gained you must understand the concept. Its great to see the very first reply invests time in playing, so i take it from that comment equal time has been invested in exercise at some point with no benifits to arrive at the conclusion. The purpose of any exercise is to promote a better fittness and help PREVENT injuries.

The OP was in an overall reply to the many posts that have been made on injuries that players have, are developing, or are inhibiting their development.
Smoking does not kill you. In the main no one has ever lit a ciggerette and died of its effects, its the long term effects of smoking that will do that. Players use there own experiences to justify something that has worked or not worked for them, as it should be, because you can only really pass judgement on what you understand. Its like some one saying "i have smoked for ten years, aint done me no harm" maybe maybe not, but when it does, and it will, hopefully its not to late.

Comments, opinions and experiences are all welcome, but please read and understand what is being said, not what you think is being said.
 
Fergie Fulton,

Would you make a YouTube vid so I can better understand some of these exercises? I'm not sure I am visualizing them properly.

Thanks for the thread.

Let me get in to some of the research material i have and see if i can find examples. I know doctors, physios and some companies are making products which i have looked at and tested to see how the preform as a functional aid, but i have seen a few that mirror some of the squash ball exercises and the points i and others have been raising since the early ninties.
I am in the middle of writing a book on the subject to try and get all the relevent dos and don'ts in one place. A lot of what i am finding is pretty similar as far as injuries are concerend, as is the relief of them as well.

watch this space for some links
 
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http://www.eatonhand.com/hw/facts.htm
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DayQeLkc710&feature=related

Here are some of the things we talk about in this field. You will notice that the exercises i have suggested and some of the material here is to help not take the place of playing.
Doctor Best say what we all know that you get more than enough exercise from daily life so you have to conteract that first by gentle stretching and manipulation. Those how do not have the power yet it is the opposite take you need to build in some power not take away.
DocZak and the gripmaster is the squash ball taken to the next level (a few of us missed that one) and is a great aid for anyone that uses there hands in an exacting way at work.
Anyway enjoy the links and if you have any specific questions to your situation drop me a line, maybe another thread with some of the research links if i can get the all clear from those concerned might be in order?
 
FYI i never said they didn't.
FYI their body shapes are completley different for athletes that do substantial weight training and exercise..think why?
As has been noted surely all the gymnast has to do to improve is just gymnastics and the sprinter just run?

Can you elaborate on what you're trying to say here?
 
Can you elaborate on what you're trying to say here?

FYI: A gymnast and sprinter do substantial amounts of weight training.

Hi Phil, its your comment what did you mean when you posted it?

We all know that training and exercise will has different results depending on how its applied and targeted.
If all exercise and training had the same results they would all end up with the same body mass, but they don't because the training or exercise is targeted to there needs.

Bass playing is an intense muscular activity, much the same as an athletes or sports persons demand is on their muscles. Just because when you practice there are no real cardio-vascular (working your muscles for the need to increase your heart rate and breathing so to supply energy to them) increase does not lessen what is being asked of them. The cardio-vascular side comes when playing live.

Think on it like this you have to play for and hour. if in that time your hands or fingers get tired you feel it and it occupies your thoughts, as fatigue sets in you can't sustain what your playing so now you are thinking of what you can't play rather than playing, you are thinking about a song to come that will make you strugle even more. Now your playing has broke down to a point that your are disrupting the groove of the song, now thats on your mind, adding to the presure you feel already, then what happens next happens. All this because a lack of fitness for purpose.
Here's a personal one from me about a famous player.

"In some of my gig situations at the end of a show, a player will come up and tell me they'd like to do what i've just done as it seems so easy. When we talk and i point out it has to be done 7 days a week, at times two, three weeks in a row before a break, traveling from venue to venue, country to country, crossing time zones flying here and there for this and that,
and not always in the ideal conditions and regardless of how you feel, they get to see and understand that playing is the easy bit, thats the fun part, its everything that has nothing to do with your playing that will affect your preformance."

Thats what i mean when i talk about being fit, being fit for purpose. if anyone harbours the idea of making a living from playing bass you have to protect your assets and they are you, all of you not just your hands but all of you.
The player in question does a work out everyday.
Hope that helps you see a different side to "just playing"
Check out the links again that were posted earlier.
 
Fergie,

Since you seem very knowledgeable on this subject, I'd like to pose a question to you. I've recently begun weight lifting / strength training, combined with running 4+ miles several times a week, in order to lose about 30 or so pounds. I've been doing all sorts of exercises - pull ups / chin ups, various rows, curls, pushups, etc. I have noticed that my hands have become stronger from holding all these weights. I've been playing a lot, so I am still quite flexible, but I can definitely feel the changes. What are your thoughts on the influences of a serious weight lifting program coupled with bass playing? Is it a question of the gymnast & the sprinter or even a boxer - building muscle while gaining agility and speed / dexterity at the same time?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Ian
 
I think the info is great and can really help but I think a lot of people are looking at it the wrong way. For instance these are not drills I would do with my bass next to me or in my hand, but rather when I am at work or sitting in my lecture classroom. I think it's useful info, thanks for the thread.
 
Hi Phil, its your comment what did you mean when you posted it?

We all know that training and exercise will has different results depending on how its applied and targeted.
If all exercise and training had the same results they would all end up with the same body mass, but they don't because the training or exercise is targeted to there needs.

Bass playing is an intense muscular activity, much the same as an athletes or sports persons demand is on their muscles. Just because when you practice there are no real cardio-vascular (working your muscles for the need to increase your heart rate and breathing so to supply energy to them) increase does not lessen what is being asked of them. The cardio-vascular side comes when playing live.

Think on it like this you have to play for and hour. if in that time your hands or fingers get tired you feel it and it occupies your thoughts, as fatigue sets in you can't sustain what your playing so now you are thinking of what you can't play rather than playing, you are thinking about a song to come that will make you strugle even more. Now your playing has broke down to a point that your are disrupting the groove of the song, now thats on your mind, adding to the presure you feel already, then what happens next happens. All this because a lack of fitness for purpose.
Here's a personal one from me about a famous player.

"In some of my gig situations at the end of a show, a player will come up and tell me they'd like to do what i've just done as it seems so easy. When we talk and i point out it has to be done 7 days a week, at times two, three weeks in a row before a break, traveling from venue to venue, country to country, crossing time zones flying here and there for this and that,
and not always in the ideal conditions and regardless of how you feel, they get to see and understand that playing is the easy bit, thats the fun part, its everything that has nothing to do with your playing that will affect your preformance."

Thats what i mean when i talk about being fit, being fit for purpose. if anyone harbours the idea of making a living from playing bass you have to protect your assets and they are you, all of you not just your hands but all of you.
The player in question does a work out everyday.
Hope that helps you see a different side to "just playing"
Check out the links again that were posted earlier.

I got the impression that you were equating weight training with body building i.e. Mr Universe and my point was that sprinters and gymnast at the highest level of these sports weight train they couldn't be at that level if they didn't.

My belief is that weight training and cardiovascular training helps a bassist especially one that plays double bass which requires a lot more effort than bass guitar. I also believe that the older you get, the more crucial it becomes to keep your fitness up. So I guess we're in agreement?
 
Fergie,

Since you seem very knowledgeable on this subject, I'd like to pose a question to you. I've recently begun weight lifting / strength training, combined with running 4+ miles several times a week, in order to lose about 30 or so pounds. I've been doing all sorts of exercises - pull ups / chin ups, various rows, curls, pushups, etc. I have noticed that my hands have become stronger from holding all these weights. I've been playing a lot, so I am still quite flexible, but I can definitely feel the changes. What are your thoughts on the influences of a serious weight lifting program coupled with bass playing? Is it a question of the gymnast & the sprinter or even a boxer - building muscle while gaining agility and speed / dexterity at the same time?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Ian

Hi Ian, as you are begining to see and feel your hands are deveoping more power in there ability to grip, in other words there ability to close and stay closed. You are indeed developing the muscles in you hands but it is the big muscles in your forearms, upper arms that are part of this chain. All the power and strength you build up in your upper body in regards to weight lifting will mean nothing if you cannot hold on to the weights you lift. In your playing it is your ability to lift your fingers away from the fretboard is the action that is required, not one of putting on.

If you hold your hand up and look at it you will see the fingers have a gentle palmwards curl, this is the natural set of a heathy hand. If you now open your fingers and stretch them wide, hold it for about ten seconds and relax you will see your hand return to the natural position. The same applies when you clench a fist then relax, it return to its natural position. This is in essence the action of the frethand to open (lift away from the fretboard), and relax (return to the fretboard), close (to push the string down), relax (to release the string up) much in the same way as a drummer will control the bounce of his sticks with minimal effort when preforming various rolls.

In many ways the action required to fret with is a series of small controled bounces in the fingers and strings. Even to the point that players who hold down a note for any length of time should bounce the pressue of the note being fretted by the finger without altering the sound or timbre of the note. This technique alone will ensure that the muscles are never held in a position of constant stress and pressure, it is sort of limbering up ready for its next task.

What you need a bench mark a series of scales or routine you can base your progress on. A warm up of about five minutes is good. Lets say you set up some scales to play as a warm up? You will be ables to relate to how your abilites are with these warm up scales as you reproduce them eveyday. Exercise practice as a warm up is about repitition of movement not duration. Five minutes a day has more benefit that none then playing for six hour at the weekend. I know there are many who scorn the idea of warm up, but you can see the benifit of it when used in this situation, its how its applied that matters. You can learn a lot from a simple warm up on how your muscles will preform, do they feel tight, tired or good and loose?
Also it clears your mind as it becomes more familier to you, helps you relax and target things you should work on when you practice.
If bass is part of your life treat it as so and enjoy it don't make it your life forsaking otherthings. I know Jeff Berlin was a keen boxer and trained with some pros, it does not bother him, he has taken responsibility in his mind that its a risk and accepts that.

Whatever you choose as your bench mark be faithfull to it because it will give you the comparison information you require, your rod and staff so to speak. If it is something you can incorparate as a warm up then do so. I will some days just do my warm up exercises which is about ten minutes and incorporates gentle stretching and playing.

I hope this helps you, if you or anyone else has any questions or issues this has raised, post a reply and i'll see if i can help.
 
I got the impression that you were equating weight training with body building i.e. Mr Universe and my point was that sprinters and gymnast at the highest level of these sports weight train they couldn't be at that level if they didn't.

My belief is that weight training and cardiovascular training helps a bassist especially one that plays double bass which requires a lot more effort than bass guitar. I also believe that the older you get, the more crucial it becomes to keep your fitness up. So I guess we're in agreement?

We are on the same wave length Phil. I have never heard that an upright requires more effort before, better technique yes, effort not so sure. Age that is the big one, it is a fact that as we age our body will breakdown through wear and tear and take longer to recover from injury. Its the old saying of "it takes me all night to do what i used do all night, as i get older all the wrong things get harder" LOL