BF fender showman VS Sunn 200S

[ALRieseberg]

Hello all, I’m looking for another lower wattage amp for practice and studio purposes to play with my Sunn 200S cab loaded with D-140’s. I found a Sunn 200 S and a BF showman for sale here in town..

Anyone have experience with both of
these amps and can shed some light on the tonal differences?
Cheers!

 

[Sunnmon]

I've owned 5 1968 Showman/Dual Showman amps and 2 1968 Sunn 200S amps. I now have 2 Dual Showmans and 1 Showman, all 1968, sitting atop 3 Sunn 200S bins, loaded with 2 D-140's(16Ω), 2 K140's and 2 E140's.
The Showman or Dual Showman was the first amp that chaps in 1968 mated with the 200S bin. With Phil Lesh, Jack Casady and Brother Berry Oakley leading the charge. Most players used the same brand amp and cabs. This "hybrid" was and still is a very tasty combo. The Showman/Dual Showman is 85 watts and early 200S amps, tube rectified were rated @ 60 watts, both R.M.S. readings. So armed with 25 more precious watts and well, an arguably better preamp section the amp isn't "better" than a 200S just different. I loved them both. A solid state rectified 200S is basically an even match power-wise to a Dual Showman. The Fender chime seals the deal for me. 2 Channels is why Chris Squire liked it as on "Perpetual Change" and "Starship Trooper" he used the Vibrato effect not available on the 200S. Alembic's first preamp was a clone of the Showman's preamp. A Drip edge 67-68 sounds as good as a BF 66-67 IMHO. Some will argue but hear a 68 Silver faced atop yer 200S bin. The 200S is an excellent amp and would also be a great choice. I voted already. Basically using all tube amps now, either Fender 4 x 6L6 or Sunn 4 x 6550A platforms. Get the Showman, don't look back. Enter the TONE ZONE! The rig will cover small to medium venues(100-250 people) no problem, perfect for classic rock and country. Just my opinion. I went with 68 cause I like shiny stuff.

 

[Sunnmon]

I hope that helps AL. good luck to you in 2022.

 

[Sunnmon]

 

[chadds]

I’ve played them when they were new in the stores and out in the wild. To me the Showman sounds amazing up to 3 then starts compressing and there’s no more volume past 7. The Sunn is more open then with the JBLs starts distorting so you get into that GFR burp some people like.

This is subjective and personal. I can’t know what the OP really wants to hear.

I love the sweet Fender tone but in a band setting it gets buried too soon. The Sunn despite its specs is more usable live. Live before that Mountainesque distortion. Studio use is different as you probably aren’t cranking them. The clarity and immediacy of the Sunn is my preference. A Fender bass can use that to propel it’s tone. Guild and Gibson Basses don’t have to sound like mud through those great tube amps.

This is TB so we are here discussing. I always wanted Fender tone with way more volume. It’s funny there was a little of it in the Acoustic 360. Definitely in SWR when not over eq’d. Not in Ampeg B-15 which was its own shade of wonderful. Not in the SVT which wasn’t a bigger B-15 but it’s own shade of good.
Minor shout out for the Sunn 2000s as it satisfied my needs but still didn’t sound sweet like a Fender. Come back to 2021 I’m using what for me gives me Fender, Sunn, English Tube, and Ampeg. Monique. Pair that with a modern power amp and phat to hifi is available with a small turn of the knobs.

Thanks for the pics. I love those Sunns! I have fond memories of my Showman purchased new in 1969. In less than six months I moved on. Guitarists were hurting us with Super Reverbs.

I love and won’t forget that JBL D-140 sound powered by Sunn or Fender tubes. Big phat mids. Hifi and warm lows with sweet highs. Nothing outside of the bass’s treble needs. Wow. All the tone the music needed.

 

[Wasnex]

Hello all, I’m looking for another lower wattage amp for practice and studio purposes to play with my Sunn 200S cab loaded with D-140’s. I found a Sunn 200 S and a BF showman for sale here in town..

Anyone have experience with both of
these amps and can shed some light on the tonal differences?
Cheers!

Tone is subjective, so ideally you will try both and choose the one you like. However, if you're like me, you may choose both . I own a silverface Showman Reverb and have the Sunn 2000s on my bucket list.

 

[ALRieseberg]

Tone is subjective, so ideally you will try both and choose the one you like. However, if you're like me, you may choose both . I own a silverface Showman Reverb and have the Sunn 2000s on my bucket list.

Wow, that's a dynamite pair of amps right there! I ended up getting the showman and I'm really liking it.

 

[daveman50]

No question, Sunn cabinets simply killed Fender cabinets at that time. A huge step forward in cabinet design. The amps were a question of taste. Either amp sounds good with a Sunn cabinet.

 

[Sunnmon]

I heartily agree with the "wish it was louder" remarks. So I got a Bassman 135 and a Bassman 100. The B135 is slightly louder than my 68 Showmans. If the venue/band is larger/louder: enter my Noel Redding Amps. A pair of Sunn 2000S rigs will be enough for even loud gigs....4 D-140's and 8 6550A's screaming. My 2000S and Dual Showmans are my favorite amps. You'll need a 200S to achieve the Felix Pappalardi tone though. And yep, the resources needed to make the big Dual Showman cabinet are better spent on a Sunn 200S Cabinet for sure. For sheer tone and volume IMHO Berry got it right Fender 400PS or Go all "Noel" like I did. I voted with my wallet and e

njoy the tone and view.

 

[dbase]

Sunn... that's my 2 cents

 

[Bassquest]

Wow! That bedroom pic above. Is your house leaning?

 

[ALRieseberg]

I heartily agree with the "wish it was louder" remarks. So I got a Bassman 135 and a Bassman 100. The B135 is slightly louder than my 68 Showmans. If the venue/band is larger/louder: enter my Noel Redding Amps. A pair of Sunn 2000S rigs will be enough for even loud gigs....4 D-140's and 8 6550A's screaming. My 2000S and Dual Showmans are my favorite amps. You'll need a 200S to achieve the Felix Pappalardi tone though. And yep, the resources needed to make the big Dual Showman cabinet are better spent on a Sunn 200S Cabinet for sure. For sheer tone and volume IMHO Berry got it right Fender 400PS or Go all "Noel" like I did. I voted with my wallet and eView attachment 4554431 njoy the tone and view.View attachment 4554427

HOLY SMOKES!!! That’s incredible.

 

[dbase]

Glad to see you still have room for family photos

 

[Michedelic]

Hello all, I’m looking for another lower wattage amp for practice and studio purposes to play with my Sunn 200S cab loaded with D-140’s. I found a Sunn 200 S and a BF showman for sale here in town..

Anyone have experience with both of
these amps and can shed some light on the tonal differences?
Cheers!

It’s an apples/oranges(but not Orange)thing. It doesn’t directly correspond, but the 200s(or Sorado, or Sonaro, they’re all the same head)is the theoretical counterpart to the Bassman, but rates as 60 watts via dual
KT88’s or 6550’s, is a linnear design, and features a tube rectifier. The later 190B was still the same amp basically, but with a solid state rectifier, and rated for a little more wattage. The classic Sunn head that would go against the Showman would be the 2000s, four power tubes at 120 watts, and a slightly different preamp/tone section. While there is only one channel on the Sunns, what you get is a lot more tuned in for bass, yet I find them hi-fi for what they are, and surprisingly bright(but in a good way). They were built from the ground up as a bass amp, not adapted guitar design, and coupled with the then forward-looking cab configuration couldn’t be beat in the tube realm until Ampeg upped their game, as far as US amps were concerned.

Just an aside…Sunn gear up through 1969 featured a woven, angled grill cloth pattern, whereas after, to the mid-70’s, it was a rectangular pattern similar to Fender, so don’t be surprised if the head and cab don’t quite match if you go with the 200s.
This is the difference, older on the right…

 

[edwinhurwitz]

Older thread, but I thought I would chime in. Here's my rig when I bring the Showman/200S combo. I use a GT Studio Preamp as a DI. No issues keeping up with loud stages, but I modified my Showman with additional filter caps, different coupling caps, a few other things that I now forget (I did the mods over 15 years ago) and power it with NOS Philips 7581as, which put any other 6L6 type to shame. More headroom, depth, and clarity.
Lots of 1967 in this picture!

 

[denton57]

I’ve traditionally have been in the Ampeg camp, I have has a 200s head and two early silverface Showmans (67, 68). I found that I loved them all. I had ran them with a single d140 or a k140 in a Guild cab that was build similar to a Sunn 1x15. I wanted a 200s cab really bad but couldn’t find one.

I finally found a Bassman 100 this past week. It’s a beauty and love the tone. Have a quad of TungSol RI 7581a’s arriving tomorrow to replace some mismatched Ruby’s. As is, it is dead quiet at idle and really sounds great. It will be my midsize amp. Also got the diagonal 215 which I know isn’t a Sunn 200s cab, but it sounds really nice with a pair of Eminence BP1525s in it. I haven’t played in the band with it yet, but the amp and cab are totally amazing at lower volumes. I want to test the cab at gig volume before gushing too much.

Have always wanted a 2000s. After picking up a 73 SVT with GE 6550’s, it might not be needed. This SVT is the best sounding one I’ve ever owned.

The 200s was incredible, but somewhat limited with a single JBL. Tone was unbeatable, but I feel I need a minimum of 100 watts. I have a B25 that fills that 60 watt slot for me.

 

[daveman50]

I had ran them with a single d140 or a k140 in a Guild cab that was build similar to a Sunn 1x15. I wanted a 200s cab really bad but couldn’t find one.

I like those Guild cabinets, I almost snagged one cheap last year but someone beat me to it.

 

[Bear From Delaware]

I have a 1967 Sunn amp, a 60 watt Scepter loaded with Dynaco parts.
That amp sounds so sweet, probably because the guts came from a high-end stereo.
You should hear it though a SWR Triad cab, it sounds angelic.

 

[Bear From Delaware]

It’s an apples/oranges(but not Orange)thing. It doesn’t directly correspond, but the 200s(or Sorado, or Sonaro, they’re all the same head)is the theoretical counterpart to the Bassman, but rates as 60 watts via dual
KT88’s or 6550’s, is a linnear design, and features a tube rectifier. The later 190B was still the same amp basically, but with a solid state rectifier, and rated for a little more wattage. The classic Sunn head that would go against the Showman would be the 2000s, four power tubes at 120 watts, and a slightly different preamp/tone section. While there is only one channel on the Sunns, what you get is a lot more tuned in for bass, yet I find them hi-fi for what they are, and surprisingly bright(but in a good way). They were built from the ground up as a bass amp, not adapted guitar design, and coupled with the then forward-looking cab configuration couldn’t be beat in the tube realm until Ampeg upped their game, as far as US amps were concerned.

Just an aside…Sunn gear up through 1969 featured a woven, angled grill cloth pattern, whereas after, to the mid-70’s, it was a rectangular pattern similar to Fender, so don’t be surprised if the head and cab don’t quite match if you go with the 200s.
This is the difference, older on the right…
View attachment 4556938

I don't know the model of Sunn cab I have, it's a 4x12 behemoth

 

[Michedelic]

I don't know the model of Sunn cab I have, it's a 4x12 behemoth

View attachment 4757570

That was their original standard guitar cabinet; the amp in that pic is a Sceptre guitar head(with rev/trem), so overall, a guitar rig that could be used as a bass rig, but you would need to put bass-friendly drivers in that for optimum performance. Aguilar used that staggered 12” concept for a similar looking bass cab of theirs. Oddly enough, in those days Sunn would also pair a guitar head with 2x15” cabs. I guess because Fender did that with the Showman, they figured there was a market for it, but who knows.
When Sunn introduced the 120 watt 2000s(bass), 1500s, and 1200s(guitar), all 30” wide, they also created a 6x12” in that width(as well as a 2x15”). It was eventually pared down to a Marshall-like 4x12.