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Bi-amping

#22
Oobly said:
Yup, that's true. Problem is that then you have no way to control the volume to each cab individually, which I think is valuable with the mismatched cab ratings.

Something that makes sense in bi-amping full range cabs is to push distortion through one only and keep the other clean to retain the bottom end. I vote the 210 for the distortion channel and 215 for clean.

Either way, the amp is pretty powerful and provides a flexible solution.
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This is something I've been thinking of trying. In this case, would you crossover the signal, send the highs to an effects loop for distortion (or whatever else), and leave the lows clean? Is it worth it to send the two separate signals to different cabs? Or just blend them both into a single output?
 
#24
ulynch said:
This is something I've been thinking of trying. In this case, would you crossover the signal, send the highs to an effects loop for distortion (or whatever else), and leave the lows clean? Is it worth it to send the two separate signals to different cabs? Or just blend them both into a single output?
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Both is possible. There are many amps which have an effects loop that can be blended. It's a matter of taste and available equipment. I have been experimenting with a guitar amp (combo) using lots of distortion along with my main rig. Sounds nice. With the guitar amp, I use close to no bass.
 
#29
1n3 said:
How are they mismatched, and how is that relevant to a bi-amped configuration?
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SPL across the frequency range, both max and at x watts. There isn't much that the 2x10 can do that the 2x15 can do louder. If you biamped them, you'd just be taking frequencies that the 2x15 is happy with, and feeding them to the 2x10 which will be the same but quieter.
 
#30
1n3 said:
How are they mismatched, and how is that relevant to a bi-amped configuration?
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Do you mean besides the obvious displacement limitations of a typical 210 versus a typical 215?

It's relevant in this thread because the OP is largely being dissuaded from bothering with the biamping thing at all. Running different speakers/cabs in the same bandwidth can work, can not work, is always a gamble, etc. Biamping would certainly remove the common bandwidth part of the equation, but we're talking about two, presumably full-range cabs here, that were also presumably never designed to be biamped.

Full-range the cabs are mismatched with each other. Biamped the cabs are a mismatch for the practice of biamping. I call this mismatched-squared :p
 
#31
Mr. Foxen said:
SPL across the frequency range, both max and at x watts.
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This is moot. First, I doubt there would be a big sensitivity difference above the crossover frequency. But with separate power amps, and control of the crossover frequency, he can compensate for a sensitivity mismatch.

There isn't much that the 2x10 can do that the 2x15 can do louder. If you biamped them, you'd just be taking frequencies that the 2x15 is happy with, and feeding them to the 2x10 which will be the same but quieter.
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Without SPL charts for these specific 15" and 10" speakers, this is speculative. What we do know is, the dispersion of a 10 will narrow at a higher frequency than a 15, You might get 2000hz out of a 15, but it'll be in a narrow beam, and response is likely to drop like a rock above that.

Not saying this is an optimal biamp rig... It would be better yet to run the HF through something other than 10" woofers, but Bill's suggestion is a good way to use what he has. It gives him the desired ability to split his effects. It also will give him a little more headroom; more power, and the mids/highs won't be riding on top of the large LF signal.
 
#32
silky smoove said:
Do you mean besides the obvious displacement limitations of a typical 210 versus a typical 215?
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Displacement limits are moot. Above the bass range, it's down to thermal ratings.

It's relevant in this thread because the OP is largely being dissuaded from bothering with the biamping thing at all.
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We see that differently, but it's not a poll; technical arguments can stand or fall on their own merits.

Full-range the cabs are mismatched with each other. Biamped the cabs are a mismatch for the practice of biamping. I call this mismatched-squared :p
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Full-range mismatch is moot. Biamped, it's not an ideal pairing, but usable, IMO. It's an easy experiment. If the OP tries it and likes it, he might get some real mid drivers, or some guitar drivers, depending on what he's after.
 
#33
1n3 said:
Displacement limits are moot. Above the bass range, it's down to thermal ratings.
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That comment was with respect to running them both full range. I could have been more clear about that. Running them both full range, a typical 210 will be displacement limited far lower than a typical 215, hence... mismatch...

1n3 said:
Full-range mismatch is moot.
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Full range mismatch is moot? That makes no sense to me. See my above comment.

1n3 said:
Biamped, it's not an ideal pairing, but usable, IMO.
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I'll agree that biamped it is certainly not an ideal pairing, and could be usable... I highly doubt that it will have any real gains over running just the 2x15 full range, but no one can say for certain without more specifics.

1n3 said:
It's an easy experiment. If the OP tries it and likes it, he might get some real mid drivers, or some guitar drivers, depending on what he's after.
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It would be an easy experiment if the OP already had a stereo powre amp, head capable of biamping, or separate amps/heads to use with a stereo preamp. Unless I've missed it (entirely possible), the OP will have to invest some money in this experiment. That negates "easy" in my book, especially for something that I would consider, as stated above, to be a likely waste of time.

As far as the OP later purchasing some real mid drivers, guitar drivers, etc. if he likes the current setup... Well... This delves further into the "negating easy" thing I mentioned above, but does a good job of what he should consider if he really wants to get into biamping. That's the way to biamp, not taking two existing cabs, a stereo power amp, a stereo preamp, and simply hoping for the best.
 
#34
silky smoove said:
That comment was with respect to running them both full range. I could have been more clear about that. Running them both full range, a typical 210 will be displacement limited far lower than a typical 215, hence... mismatch...

Full range mismatch is moot? That makes no sense to me. See my above comment.
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Full range is moot because we're talking about biamping here. At least, the OP, Bill Fitzmaurice, me, and a few others are, and it's in the thread title.

I'll agree that biamped it is certainly not an ideal pairing, and could be usable... I highly doubt that it will have any real gains over running just the 2x15 full range, but no one can say for certain without more specifics.
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I listed a few benefits I saw, including the ability to separate effects; a stated goal of the OP. You can disagree.

It would be an easy experiment if the OP already had a stereo powre amp, head capable of biamping, or separate amps/heads to use with a stereo preamp. Unless I've missed it (entirely possible), the OP will have to invest some money in this experiment. That negates "easy" in my book, especially for something that I would consider, as stated above, to be a likely waste of time.
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:confused: Per the OP's posts, and Bill's recommendation, the only thing he doesn't already have is a 50w guitar amp; an easy thing to buy or borrow. Wouldn't even have to be a guitar amp. If he had a 210 combo guitar amp, he could use those speakers instead of the Ashdown cab. Or a single-ten combo for easier distortion...
 
#35
He needs to sell the biamp stuff an use the money for the 50w guitar head, and just dual amp. There is no advantage to the crossover thing at all between these cabs, the only benefit would be high passing the 2x10 because it can't keep up with the 2x15, and the guitar head will do that on its own. Probably best getting ri of the 2x10 too and getting a guitar combo, because for whatever reason they seem to come up cheaper than heads.

Otherwise its a lot of effort just to try and use a 2x10 when you have a 2x15 to use.
 
#36
Mr. Foxen said:
He needs to sell the biamp stuff an use the money for the 50w guitar head, and just dual amp. There is no advantage to the crossover thing at all between these cabs, the only benefit would be high passing the 2x10 because it can't keep up with the 2x15, and the guitar head will do that on its own. Probably best getting ri of the 2x10 too and getting a guitar combo, because for whatever reason they seem to come up cheaper than heads.

Otherwise its a lot of effort just to try and use a 2x10 when you have a 2x15 to use.
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"sell the biamp stuff"... "a lot of effort"? We're sure reading this differently. His effects unit just happens to have a crossover. He's got one powerful amp and two cabs. One cab is very likely to go higher, the other has (we assume) greater displacement and power capacity. With the addition of one small amp and a couple cables, he can play with biamping and effects splits. Not a big deal.

We disagree on the advantage of the crossover. Again, it's not an optimal biamp rig, but I think it's a worthwhile experiment, and better than simple dual-amping, where you'd have a larger overlap of bandwidth.
 

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