Big amps

[MaxC]

In the past my amps have been in the 300 watt range.
My rig now is a Fender Rumbler 500 with an extra cab to use the full 500.
Last night i set in for a guy and used his bassman 800 and could not believe the difference that 300 watts made.
I had thought I needed another Dclass 500w bass amp but now believe I might be short sighted and reallyneed more amp.
I realize the problems of hauling it around but I love to feel my bass.
Any suggestions?

 

[nostatic]

Not all class D amps are created equal. On some level, you get what you pay for.

Mesa D800/D800+/WD800 are my choice these days (have owned/gigged each, WD800 is main with D800 at the moment). There are other good choices depending on what sounds you're going for and budget.

 

[Gearhead17]

What rig did you play through on stage? We're you hearing the house system while playing that rig? Maybe that was a bigger factor here.

 

[5StringBlues]

Were you running thru your regular cabs?

 

[HOOLIGAN]

Get a tube amp.

 

[agedhorse]

Get a tube amp.

The Bassman 800 that he really liked is not a tube amp, it's a hybrid with a class D power amp.

 

[Marko 1]

Could have been other factors besides the extra wattage; what other differences were there that could have accounted for the improvement? Could have been his cabs, or his EQ settings for all we know, or the PA, even the band's sound that allowed it to shine.

 

[Redbrangus]

Stalin is reputed to have said something to the effect that 'mass has it's own quality'; he was talking about large buildings, but in my opinion it has relevance in the sound world. Headroom has it's own quality...it's not an effect that's easy to describe, but it can be noticeable. An amp that's operating at the upper limits of its capabilities just sounds more compressed or less 'open' than one that is operating at only 50% capacity. I've always presumed that was because the smaller amp is probably clipping the peaks and/or the distortion level is increased. I've got a pair of studio monitors that are rated at something like 30-50 watts, and I used to drive them with an amp rated at 60-watts per channel. They sounded fine, but they sound audibly better with an amp with several times that much power. Currently I'm powering those with a Crown K2...I forget what the rated power output of that amp is, but I think it's over 400 watts/channel at 8 ohms. It definitely makes the speakers sound more 'open' and less 'pinched'. And I don't particularly worry about the speakers being over-powered...if I turn things up enough to endanger them, they're way too loud for the room.

When I was designing and building sound systems, I always tried to make sure there was plenty of power behind the whole system--I've heard way too many large systems that were audibly underpowered. There often were occasions when a less experienced band engineer would push a well-powered system harder (louder) than necessary because they weren't used to the sound of decent headroom--they were trying to push the system until they got the compression and distortion components that they were accustomed to hearing and that they equated with being loud enough to rock correctly.

I don't know if this effect accounts for all the difference in the sound of this larger bass amp, but I think it might have contributed to the situation. For my money, there's not really any such thing as too much power in a bass rig. But always be mindful of the Spiderman axiom: with great power comes great responsibility.

 

[ctmullins]

Be careful when attributing causality. There were, in fact, many things different that night than just the additional wattage. Different tone stack, different room, perhaps different cabinets, maybe different bass?

Because of the logarithmic nature of our perception of “loudness”, the difference between 500 watts and 800 watts is barely perceptible, all else being equal. And there’s the rub: when folks make these comparisons, all else is never equal.

 

[agedhorse]

When designing installed systems, especially flown where its costly to access, I always power at less than the "RMS" rating and/or tightly limitvtgem so that in the event somebody who thinks they know better tries to get more out of the system than it's designed for, the speakers will most likely survive intact. Especially important in warranty situations.

Never underestimate the ability of an idiot to damage something that you thought was foolproof.

 

[basscooker]

...
Never underestimate the ability of an idiot to damage something that you thought was foolproof.

I sold a 2 way 4x8 cab to a co-worker. The next day I heard him telling someone that it has 4 subs in it. WHOA THERE BUDDY those are definitely not subs, and will definitely not live long if you treat them as such.... I think one of the biggest hurdles to overcome is trying to make some people understand that the word "bass" does not indicate subwoofer.

 

[HOOLIGAN]

The Bassman 800 that he really liked is not a tube amp, it's a hybrid with a class D power amp.

OP said he loves to FEEL his bass, If he thinks the Bassman 800 is a big improvement over his 500w Rumble, I suggest he gets a tube amp (Fender Super Bassman would be the logical choice if he digs Fender).

 

[MaxC]

I believe the 800 has two 15’ (I am verifying that) My 500 has two 10’s and a 15. Both rigs were ran at about half with overall volume controlled on the bass.
I do believe both amps are class D but the 800 is a seemly heaver more solid
amp.
There is no doubt the rumbler series is built to be lighter and I would suppect that would cause a lighter feel in the “thump” but that is just my guess.
I sure dont want a second amp that dont have the big “feel”.
The 500 has served but the “balls” of the 800 were bigger.......

 

[TBGFRED]

Never underestimate the ability of an idiot to damage something that you thought was foolproof.

The challenge of making stuff fool/idiot-proof is that we are ever building better idiots.
Rust never sleeps.

Can't help thinking that a rig re-do centered on say, a Mesa Subway amp and two of the companion 12s or the 212 would provide the visceral bass experience OP is seeking and end up being more portable - esp. vs. the Bassman.

 

[ctmullins]

I believe the 800 has two 15’ (I am verifying that) My 500 has two 10’s and a 15. Both rigs were ran at about half with overall volume controlled on the bass.
I do believe both amps are class D but the 800 is a seemly heaver more solid
amp.
There is no doubt the rumbler series is built to be lighter and I would suppect that would cause a lighter feel in the “thump” but that is just my guess.
I sure dont want a second amp that dont have the big “feel”.
The 500 has served but the “balls” of the 800 were bigger.......

That means:

• Different mix of drivers
• Different characteristics amongst drivers of the same size (15s are not all alike)
• Different cabinet construction - lumber, joinery, bracing, etc.
• Different amplifier designs
• Different room
• Different placement in the room

“15s” means almost nothing. “Rigs ran at about half” means almost nothing. And room interactions are crucial.

Interested in exactly what cab was paired with the 800...

 

[agedhorse]

I believe the 800 has two 15’ (I am verifying that) My 500 has two 10’s and a 15. Both rigs were ran at about half with overall volume controlled on the bass.
I do believe both amps are class D but the 800 is a seemly heaver more solid
amp.
There is no doubt the rumbler series is built to be lighter and I would suppect that would cause a lighter feel in the “thump” but that is just my guess.
I sure dont want a second amp that dont have the big “feel”.
The 500 has served but the “balls” of the 800 were bigger.......

The Bassman 800 amp is voiced quite differently from the Rumble series. What you are hearing is in large part associated with this.

 

[nostatic]

Never underestimate the ability of an idiot to damage something that you thought was foolproof.

Apparently you are familiar with my work. I'll just be moving along and....hey, what does that wire do?

 

[G-Dog]

I believe the 800 has two 15’ (I am verifying that) My 500 has two 10’s and a 15. Both rigs were ran at about half with overall volume controlled on the bass.

So, have you tried your Rumble 500 at a bit more than half? And/or duplicating the 800's EQ settings, as best you can, on the 500? Half of the 500 is not the same as half the 800. Of course, the Bassman has some EQ advantages over the Rumble besides wattage, like the Deep switch, sweepable mids, tube preamp.

I do believe both amps are class D but the 800 is a seemly heaver more solid amp.

Yep, both Class D ICEpower amps. How about the 800's cabs? Are they Bassman neos, or what? The Bassman 115 neos are power rated a bit higher than the Rumble 115s, but not a huge amount. The Bassman wood is slightly thicker, but I don't believe the electronics are much, if any, more 'solid'. The 800 head weighs less than 20 lb.s compared to almost 50 for the 100, and 65 for the Super (300)!

There is no doubt the rumbler series is built to be lighter and I would suppect that would cause a lighter feel in the “thump” but that is just my guess.

Both the Rumble and Bassman are built to be light in weight, but that doesn't necessarily translate to light in sound. I can get very similar, very heavy, very thumpy feels out of both my Rumble 500 combo and my Bassman 500 w/115 Bassman neo cab. It's all in the EQ-age, then adjust volume as needed. If you're running your Rumble at just half, you've still got plenty headroom to play with.

I sure dont want a second amp that dont have the big “feel”.
The 500 has served but the “balls” of the 800 were bigger.......

Try all kinds of EQing first. If you truly can not get there any kinda way, then get the 800 and another 115 and see if that gives it to you.

 

[MaxC]

I am questioning the owner about the bassman cabinet and speakers.
As I was a set un I havnt yet been able to set them side by side and play either
I admit I have never used all the headroom on the 500 so I have expermenting yet to do.
I bought the rumbler becouse Im old and wanted a lighter rig and it is.
I didn’t realize I was missing anything till I used the 800.
As I said historically a 300 watt amp has always been enough.
There is a lot for this old man to learn.

 

[PotsdamBass8]

As a Bassman 500 owner, I can tell you that you’re probably hearing the voicing of the amp, not the extra watts. The preamp is extremely flexible, but both the vintage channel and the blended in overdrive have a very pleasing heft to them. The overdrive in particular (meaning the actual blended in od, not just the channel) is something I have not heard before. I’m trying to recreate it on an HX Stomp and I’m having a hard time getting something with the same weight to it.

Do you remember the settings? The vintage channel is a passive eq, which tends to have some meat on the notes even when it’s run “flat” at 2-8-2.