Big E Speakers pt 3

[nostatic]

On a positive note, both Abrasive Response and Credential Flinging are playing Lollapalooza this year!

 

[Arjank]

In the home audio world, I use four small subwoofers distributed around the room to de-correlate the in-room bass energy, and this works quite well. Credit to Earl Geddes; I'm using his idea with his permission.

That's indeed one of the best solutions, but it takes some experimenting to get the positions of the subwoofers right. A DSP with parametric EQ will also come in handy to give each subwoofer a dip in a certain frequency range.

Full-range dipole speakers also introduce decorrelation relative to a monopole speaker, as the backwave is shifted in phase 180 degrees relative to the frontwave (which tends towards cancellation at long wavelengths, but is otherwise smoother in-room).

That's why I mentioned those (open baflle), but they aren't pressure generators in the normal sense (that's why measuring the bass response of these designs is so difficult).

I think that a good transmission line introduces decorrelation due to the internal path-length-induced time delay on the backwave energy, such that we have the phase relationship between the two bass sources - woofer and line terminus - rotating relative to one another (to my ears a good transmission line sounds better than it measures, and this is one possible explanation)

The famous TL-dip, it indeed measures(and simulates) worse then it sounds. But it also depends on the distance between woofer and line terminus. It even works better when using two drivers, one positioned at 1/5th and one at 3/5th of the line, this reduces the TL-dip.
These big ol' one-time-folded TL's sound HUGE in the lower octave when placed correctly in the room. Belive me Duke, I'm a fan of those enclosures too
And with these it's indeed an interaction between the sound generated by the woofer, the line terminus and the room nodes. but still, it depends a lot on the room.
The same also works with tall (low-tuned)ported cabinets where the woofer is at the top of the cabinet and the port low at the back of the enclosure. They generate an in-room sound similar to those tall TL's.

The MVW cabinet theoretically does more scrambling-up of the backwave energy than either a transmission line or dipole, and therefore should be less room-sensitive than either.

(De-correlation also has benefits further up the spectrum, but that's sort of a different topic).

Anyway that's my best guess at this point. This is all imo, ime, and ymmv.

Why does it theoretically scramble more then a dipole?
What comes out of the "MVW ports/flares" is that in-fase, rotated 180degrees out-off-fase or "rotated" several times to create a(big) time-shift/delay?

My 2 cents....

 

[DukeLeJeune]

That's [distributed multiple subs] indeed one of the best solutions, but it takes some experimenting to get the positions of the subwoofers right. A DSP with parametric EQ will also come in handy to give each subwoofer a dip in a certain frequency range.

In my experience it's not nearly so complicated. Since the location of any one sub only has a fractional impact on the whole, no one sub's location is critical, which is not the case when you're trying to position a single sub.

Following some very general and flexible positioning guidelines and driving all four subs with a single channel of amplification, my customers are often achieving +/- 3 dB response across the bass region on their first try, and this holds up over a fairly large listening area (greatly reduced spatial variation compared with a single-sub system). The amplifier included has a single band of parametric EQ, but to the best of my knowledge none of my Swarm customers have felt the need to use it.

Geddes has achieved +/- 1.5 dB by measuring and DSP-correcting each individual sub using a proprietary algorithm that he wrote, so there is room for improvement over my less rigorous approach, but not a whole lot.

Why does it [the manipulated vortex waveguide] theoretically scramble more then a dipole?

Okay I'm not one of the two people who really understands this stuff, so this is just my take:

Turbulence is deliberately introduced and manipulated into both increasing and smearing the effective path length.

 

[Arjank]

In my experience it's not nearly so complicated. Since the location of any one sub only has a fractional impact on the whole, no one sub's location is critical, which is not the case when you're trying to position a single sub.
......... The amplifier included has a single band of parametric EQ, but to the best of my knowledge none of my Swarm customers have felt the need to use it.

Geddes has achieved +/- 1.5 dB by measuring and DSP-correcting each individual sub using a proprietary algorithm that he wrote, so there is room for improvement over my less rigorous approach, but not a whole lot.

Yeah, the DSP is there for the nitpickers/audio-freaks

Okay I'm not one of the two people who really understands this stuff, so this is just my take:

Turbulence is manipulated into smearing the effective path length.

So, if I visualize it, I see little "tornados"(vortex) inside the MVW grabbing the sound-waves(with different frequencies) and then after some time spewing them out of the flares. So, what creates these little tornado's? panels distributed throughout the cabinet with different lenghts/angles etc?
And how does one know that the "panels" are dimensioned / positioned correctly to avoid the randomness of the little "tornados" and the affecting frequencies? To many variables, but that's just my opinion.....I wanna know how it works

 

[DukeLeJeune]

So, if I visualize it, I see little "tornados"(vortex) inside the MVW grabbing the sound-waves(with different frequencies) and then after some time spewing them out of the flares. So, what creates these little tornado's? panels distributed throughout the cabinet with different lenghts/angles etc?
And how does one know that the "panels" are dimensioned / positioned correctly to avoid the randomness of the little "tornados" and the affecting frequencies? To many variables, but that's just my opinion.....I wanna know how it works

My security clearance allows me to talk about what the cabinet does, but I'm not cleared to talk about how it does it.

 

[Arjank]

My security clearance allows me to talk about what the cabinet does, but I'm not cleared to talk about how it does it.

I know.......

 

[DukeLeJeune]

I know.......

Thanks for understanding, and I don't blame you a bit for asking! On the contrary, I'd have been worried about you if you hadn't.

* * * *

One of the things that impresses me the most about the genesis of the MVW cabinet is that Steve and Tom were attentive enough to notice an unexpected result in an experimental cabinet they built, and instead of dismissing it as impossible or an anomaly or a mistake, they relentlessly it pursued into uncharted territory. Their backgrounds had uniquely prepared them for this mission. They are both way out on the tail end of the bell curve, and they are not afraid to spend a weekend building test boxes just to learn one little thing. They work harder than kids play. They tell me over the phone about the approaches they take to this or that situation, and most of the time they are things that I literally never would have thought of. It's like I think in addition and subtraction (and have gotten fairly good at it), but these guys think in calculus and differential equations without even trying.

 

[Arjank]

One of the things that impresses me the most about the genesis of the MVW cabinet is that Steve and Tom were attentive enough to notice an unexpected result in an experimental cabinet they built, and instead of dismissing it as impossible or an anomaly or a mistake, they relentlessly it pursued into uncharted territory. Their backgrounds had uniquely prepared them for this mission. They are both way out on the tail end of the bell curve, and they are not afraid to spend a weekend building test boxes just to learn one little thing. They work harder than kids play. They tell me over the phone about the approaches they take to this or that situation, and most of the time they are things that I literally never would have thought of. It's like I think in addition and subtraction (and have gotten fairly good at it), but these guys think in calculus and differential equations without even trying.

Guess we'll have to wait for the Patent to be granted.

But what about the impedance plots I was talking about in several MVW topics, shouldn't be that hard to execute. It will not show the innards of the MVW but it'll tell me at least something.....
Btw. do all owners have to sign anything that'll prevent them from taking a driver out of the cabinet and post some pics of the innards? is there a MVW shipped to the Netherlands? If so I'll have a look (and listen)

 

[Arjank]

On the contrary, I'd have been worried about you if you hadn't

 

[Thomas Ewers]

Arjank,
I believe some of the info you request may soon be available third party even.
Also don't think just tornadic events just non-laminar.
BigE

 

[One Drop]

Seamonkey

I've tried to be civil. I've tried to take the high road. You are following back and forth to create a negative atmosphere. Since you have nothing positive to say and are casting an enjoyable discussion in a negative light. Everyone says to ignore the trolls. That's difficult for me to do as I feel it's not fair that every time you show up on a thread---it no longer makes me angry---it just saddens me.

I respectfully ask for you to not post on any of the threads involving my speakers. I know that there is no one on these threads that wants to hear from you. Your presence offers nothing positive.

I am going to strongly voice my opinions to the mods and have you unable to post in these threads.

Talkbass is nearly always a positive experience---even when opinions differ. I don't think it's fair that every time I open one of these threads I feel saddened by your presence.

Actually your petty rants have no influence on anyone's interest in my cabinets. I feel that when someone's presence only causes negativity (as the obvious goal)that it's not out of line to ask the mods to step in.

Keep on taking the high road and worry not- the more he posts the more he reveals his own limitations and questionable motives.

If his motives were an increase in knowledge and a better understanding of the possible capabilities (or lack of the same) of the technology you are experimenting with then he would be engaging with the many very experienced and thoughtful posters in this thread instead of ignoring them and hammering on a few points relevant only to him. It is obvious he is unable or unwilling to understand any of the issues being discussed past his own reductive and simplistic view.

This thread has become probably the single most interesting one on amplification on TB due to the intelligent and germaine arguments regarding measurement, perception, usability, and sound theory by so many great minds who have benefited from great practical experience and study, in various measure. None of this would have emerged if not in response to the trollish and abrasive posts of a certain notorious member of the community, so for this alone I would argue that his posts be allowed to be stand in this and other threads.

Banning him from this thread would only lend him credibility, add to his obvious feelings of self importance as the only true voice of reason here, and remove the proof of his own lack of credibility, namely his own posts.

Mods, please forgive me if I've crossed a line here, we are supposed to treat fellow members with respect; I have done so, but with the same respect he has treated others, including myself in the past.

 

[Arjank]

Arjank,
I believe some of the info you request may soon be available third party even.
Also don't think just tornados events just non-laminar.
BigE

Thnx

 

[3rdcurve]

Wow, you guys got serious while I was sleepin!

 

[spiritbass]

Mike - I'm in with a question that occurred over the weekend. Have you had a chance to compare the modular version of the 210 flex to the 'all-in-one'? I am wondering if there is an audible difference having the 10" drivers in separate chambers versus one chamber.

 

[MarkA]

Mike - I'm in with a question that occurred over the weekend. Have you had a chance to compare the modular version of the 210 flex to the 'all-in-one'? I am wondering if there is an audible difference having the 10" drivers in separate chambers versus one chamber.

Curious about this as well.

 

[Razman]

What's the best MVW cab for metal?

 

[Thomas Ewers]

Razman probably the 210Flex!!!

 

[Mark Sacchetti]

Just unpacked the 46. Here is a picture of the cab .

 

[Mark Sacchetti]

Here's a the Tardis & Skjold with the 46

 

[Mike Arnopol]

Mike - I'm in with a question that occurred over the weekend. Have you had a chance to compare the modular version of the 210 flex to the 'all-in-one'? I am wondering if there is an audible difference having the 10" drivers in separate chambers versus one chamber.

I really don't feel that the difference is very noticeable. I building one for myself. I've compared a 110 Flex with the 110 sub to the 210 Flex. At the same voicing there was little difference.

The only difference is between combining a 110 Flex w/sub to a 210 is that you lose the one uber hot midrange setting and the "dark" setting.

With the new 210 Flex Modular you retain those settings and features. The 210 Flex Modular will have one more voicing setting so that if you run the top(110Flex) by itself you have all of the voicing options of the 110 Flex. And when run with the sub---you have all of the voicing options of the 210.

For me--the schlep advantage is the big thing. Sonic differences will be minimal. The only other difference is a coupla hunnert bucks.