Black Hole Sun tuning mystery solved!

[obimark]

I have found that when playing along with most songs original recordings there is no standard. Especially older recordings. Some are sharp or flat or just out of tune. I often wondered if it was always intentional or on stuff from the 70’s or older a product of recording equipment . I don’t mean the bands that have been known to drop a half step like many 80’s bands. I think every older Rolling Stones recording is either a bit sharp or just “fast”.

This. I am still not sure ecactly what Running w the devil is tuned to, seems like just a tad off from half step down.

 

[sonic 7]

Getting sucked into this rabbit hole, a minor fifth is in the quarter tone scale between a diminished fifth and a perfect fifth.

 

[bfields]

It seems to me that every Rick James recording I've worked from is non-standard (maybe around A 450?). I wonder if that was a thing of his.

 

[knumbskull]

This. I am still not sure ecactly what Running w the devil is tuned to, seems like just a tad off from half step down.

IIRC in an interview Eddie said they tuned slightly lower than standard (I forget the exact measurement) as it helped DLR's voice.

some early AC/DC is a bit off too, i assume from tuning by ear.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

Learning to play in the 70's using LP's, i had a turntable with a strobe light speed adust, you could adjust the speed up or down a little, and that was usually enough to get it in tune with my bass tuned to A440. On some albums I had to adjust speed on nearly every song, thats just how things were recorded back in the Day.

 

[knumbskull]

oh and speaking as someone whose band decided to tune to 432hz a few years ago for poorly understood reasons, i can tell you confidently that the main cosmic and spiritual result was that we all had to go out and buy Snark tuners.

 

[Manny Bernardez]

What’s a minor fifth?

Minor Fifth would be a sharp Fourth or a flat Fifth me thinks.

 

[GoesThump]

Minor Fifth would be a sharp Fourth or a flat Fifth me thinks.

That would be an augmented fourth or diminished fifth.

GT

 

[Wasnex]

It seems to me that every Rick James recording I've worked from is non-standard (maybe around A 450?). I wonder if that was a thing of his.

Perhaps this had something to do with it:


Playin in tune is L7 baby

 

[GoesThump]

A lot of frequencies were used for A in the pre-modern era.

Further, they could vary widely from place to place. i.e. an organ built in Rome wouldn't necessarily have the same A as one built in Paris at roughly the same time. In the Baroque, northern Germans tended to tune higher than southern Germans. Further, Southern Italians tuned lower than Northern Italians did. IIRC Grove has a solid write up of this under "tuning".

At different times and places, it varied from A=~392 to A=~465. 415 was quite commonly used, as was 432 a little later on. (415 is about a semitone lower, 392 a whole tone down. 432 is about a quarter tone flat.)

Keep in mind no one had a way to accurately measure the # of cycles per second (which is what Hertz is) way back either.

These days orchestras are tuning up to 442Hz - it has become more and more common over the last 25 years or so. The usual rationale is that it is more brilliant sounding.

I suppose in 60 years someone on the internet with no knowledge of musical history will say "for years everyone tuned to 440 to keep their parkas in line with the vibrations of the universe."

GT

 

[RocknRay]

“According to music theory, A = 432 Hz is mathematically consistent with the universe” — look it up! — it’s the truth, it’s actual, everything is satisfactual! Here’s to a zippity-do-dah new year, y’all!

 

[BD Jones]

What’s a minor fifth?

It's a 5th that hasn't reached drinking age. Once it does, then everything is perfect.

 

[Killing Floor]

True. Soundgarden was the original 5G carrier through FM radio. Tuning to 432 Hz will end in tragedy. You seem like a nice dude, you don’t want that weight on your shoulders.

 

[The Nameless]

Of course, you know that I meant on modern recordings. The point was that I don't think the Pretenders or anyone in modern music tuned this way deliberately until sometime in the 90's, but I don't know for sure.

In 80 or 81, a lesser known guitarist by the name of Eddie Van Halen introduced a tuning that I hadn't experienced yet, drop D a whole step down. Which is actually Drop C. That disc was called Fair Warning. And later, Drop C tuning became extremely popular with Nu Metal bands. Van Halen, and scads of others, used a basic Flat tuning system. All their discs were recorded a Half Step below standard. Fair Warning took the Flat tuning a "step" further, pun intended, and changed the way kids tuned their guitars forever. Was Eddie the first? I doubt it. But it was the first I'd heard it. We loved it cuz our strings felt loose, and the sound was mean, heavy.

 

[DirtDog]

I have found that when playing along with most songs original recordings there is no standard. Especially older recordings. Some are sharp or flat or just out of tune. I often wondered if it was always intentional or on stuff from the 70’s or older a product of recording equipment . I don’t mean the bands that have been known to drop a half step like many 80’s bands. I think every older Rolling Stones recording is either a bit sharp or just “fast”.

Due to the vagaries of mechanical equipment in use at the time, too. Perhaps some sharp or flat recordings were intentional or perhaps the equipment tech hadn't gotten around to calibrating the tape deck in the studio. Even being a fraction of an FPS off can mess with the apparent pitch of a recording.

 

[Mushroo]

It's good ear training practice to re-tune your bass to different songs on the radio. With enough practice, you can tune your bass quietly during the first verse, and join in with the band, confidently in-tune, for the second verse. Very useful skill to have for jam sessions, open mic nights, etc.

 

[Killed_by_Death]

I play the song on Rocksmith & being the super-user that I am, I simply modified the song to be A440.
All the ones I was able to edit, I have:

Accept - Balls to the Wall
Hendrix - Voodoo Chile
Rick Derringer - R&R Hoochie Koo
KISS - Heaven's on Fire

 

[rational baze]

IIRC having watched interviews with Michael Bienhorn the producer on Superunknown, the 432hz thing wasn't in consideration on Black Hole Sun, they simply slowed down or sped up the tape because they thought the tempo wasn't right.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

My band has been playing Black Hole Sun.

I practice it to the studio recording but the tuning (D#, G#,C#,G#) is always off. Tonight I figured out that Soundgarden used 432hZ tuning! It is now in perfect tune!

I only recently heard of 432hZ tuning. It has various theories attached to it. "Some theorists believe that 440 Hz was designed to stimulate fear, sickness, oppression. This imposed frequency was introduced as the standard frequency in 1940 in the US." (Now I know what caused COVID!!!)

It is supposed to be more harmonic and pleasant than 440hZ. It is supposed to help your Chakra or Shakra, and stuff like that.

Just wanted to share....

Well, I’ve been playing music @ A-440 since the early 1960s. I haven’t experienced any feelings of oppression, fear, or being ill. Now that you mentioned it , it may be what is exasperating my paranoia tendencies... LOL.

Speaking of days of yore and finding song keys in the age of analog, variable speed turntables, tape players, and no affordable tuners other than pitch forks, I get where you are coming from. Mechanical Strobe tuners from Conn, and Peterson were beastly expensive, so most tuning was done by ear based on the best guess of the actual key. Loads of fun, and extremely time consuming.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

In bands, we always tuned to the keyboard player’s A, since there was no easy way to re-tune a keyboard on the fly. I don’t recall any howls if outrage from the audience: “Say! You guys are half a cent off, I want a refund!” You can drive yourself nuts with this stuff to no useful purpose. The first time I plugged into a full blown Peterson Strobe Tuner, I realized how approximate the intonation is on most instruments anyway. If it sounds good, it IS good.