Double Bass Blonde Basses in Jazz

[vanderbrook]

A couple of comments: Once again, I'm in agreement with Eric. Among DB players, the negative opinions regarding Engels are not the result of prejudice-- as in (according to Google), a "preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience." Au contraire! Those negative opinions tend to very much be based on experience. Engels are basses that, unless heavily modified, have weak, poorly-designed neck joints, thin necks that lead to substantial left-hand fatigue, low overstand and flat fingerboard projection that make the upper registers difficult to access, and overall poor sound. Although sharing a design, IME, they are a far cry from the best of their Kay ancestors. IMO, they are, except for BSOs, one of the poorest choices one can make in a ply bass.

My second comment concerns carved vs. ply tops. Throughout this thread I've sensed an undercurrent with which I've disagreed in the past. That's the notion that for jazz-- especially when playing amplified-- there's not much benefit to a carved top. While most of us understand and recognize the critical difference for arco playing, I find to be misguided the notion that it just doesn't matter for jazz pizz. There's good reason that most of our jazz pizz. idols play and played carved basses. Now, even in a situation when the amplification masks most of the sonic benefits, there will still be the difference in the feel and response of the instrument to the player. That difference, even with my own limited skills and talent, has always been quite apparent to me.

My respect for your opinions contributes significantly to my insistence on exploring other options.

I tried a 150 in his shop and really liked it. I'm one of those who has a fully carved bass and am thinking of trading down because of the issues with living in the dry west (I live in Grand Junction).

I'm hoping the 150 he wants to show me has the oil varnish, rather than the lacquer finish. Violin corners would be a nice touch, too. I should know more soon...

 

[Who da Ville]

This Engelhardt's neck was somewhat thinner than what I'm accustomed to, but certainly not night-and-day different.

I know your original question was about color, but I personally see a much larger issue with the Engelhardt.

When I was shopping for a double bass, I played a blonde Engelhardt which was very affordable. At the time, I thought I liked the skinny neck; being used to playing BG, I thought it made the bass easier to play. However, I didn't pursue the Engelhardt because it had other problems. Now, a few years later, I'm very happy I bought a bass with a 'standard' neck. I wonder if the skinny neck would have hampered my style, or perhaps led to injuries. FWIW

The bass I ended up buying is a pretty ugly shade of orange, but nobody has ever said anything about the color. It's also pretty beat up, and some people have commented that they like the 'character.' I bought the bass because it was within my budget, and because it 'spoke to me' whenever I touched it; as I believe you too should do.

For a budget bass, you really can't go wrong with a bottom-of-the line laminated Shen; I play one every week at band practice. For what it is, it really has a good jazz sound.

 

[shwashwa]

i think if the question is about color, blonde should not be looked down on at all. if its about englehardt, i personally do not like those basses at all. the only ones i have liked are ones that have had shims placed under the fingerboard to make them feel like a normal bass (most likely added strength to the neck as well). i was under the impression, however, that non bass players thought they were good basses. it seems to be a pretty recognizable name.

 

[vanderbrook]

I know your original question was about color, but I personally see a much larger issue with the Engelhardt.

When I was shopping for a double bass, I played a blonde Engelhardt which was very affordable. At the time, I thought I liked the skinny neck; being used to playing BG, I thought it made the bass easier to play. However, I didn't pursue the Engelhardt because it had other problems. Now, a few years later, I'm very happy I bought a bass with a 'standard' neck. I wonder if the skinny neck would have hampered my style, or perhaps led to injuries. FWIW

The bass I ended up buying is a pretty ugly shade of orange, but nobody has ever said anything about the color. It's also pretty beat up, and some people have commented that they like the 'character.' I bought the bass because it was within my budget, and because it 'spoke to me' whenever I touched it; as I believe you too should do.

For a budget bass, you really can't go wrong with a bottom-of-the line laminated Shen; I play one every week at band practice. For what it is, it really has a good jazz sound.

Unfortunately, the Shen SB88 I tried with Spiros was disappointing. Actually, the A and D strings didn't sound bad, as I recall; the E string was fair, but about D and above on the G string, it just went "tonk." The action was perfect, and I think I generally know how to pull good tone from the DB. It may be worthwhile to explore the issue more deeply when I next visit with my local luthier/Shen dealer...

 

[Jeff Elkins]

...Engels are basses that, unless heavily modified, have weak, poorly-designed neck joints, thin necks that lead to substantial left-hand fatigue, low overstand and flat fingerboard projection that make the upper registers difficult to access, and overall poor sound. Although sharing a design, IME, they are a far cry from the best of their Kay ancestors. IMO, they are, except for BSOs, one of the poorest choices one can make in a ply bass.

I am extremely supportive of buying the best instrument one can afford (especially for beginners, and especially young beginners).

But I purchased a 2006 Engelhardt Swingmaster in 2010, and had it set up (no heavy mods) by David Williams Fine Violins in Nashville. Over the past 5 years:
- I've played a number of other basses (only one Kay in really good shape, no American Standards, and nothing European of high quality), including 2 Shens that my local college had (and maintained well).
- I've played over 400 jazz, driving bluegrass, and (a few) orchestra gigs.
- I've used guts, D'Addario Hybrids and Orchestrals, and Innovation Silver Slaps strings.
- Live and in studio I've mic'd my bass with everything from Neumanns to Pelusos to Rode ribbons to SM58s; Full Circle, Realist pickups, and K&K systems.

I realize that my experience is both limited, entry-level (by comparison), and anecdotal. But...

I've never had a problem with my neck joint.
I've never had an issue with left-hand fatigue.
In the opinion of FOH/studio engineers, other musicians (pros and amateurs), and audience members I get good projection and a quality tone.

Further, the two Shens I played were hard to get quality sound from, and I personally hated the full-sized necks.

I obviously don't have enough information to clearly validate my opinions on the issue, but I wanted to add that in my experience, Engelhardts are a fine instruments. A lot has to do with setup, and a good teacher to review one's technique and instrument (constraints?), perhaps.

And I also get a high number of compliments on my blonde bass, and have never been sneered at for it, including at the old time Appalachian music jams in this region nor on the jazz gigs I've played with regional performers.

 

[vanderbrook]

I am extremely supportive of buying the best instrument one can afford (especially for beginners, and especially young beginners).

But I purchased a 2006 Engelhardt Swingmaster in 2010, and had it set up (no heavy mods) by David Williams Fine Violins in Nashville. Over the past 5 years:
- I've played a number of other basses (only one Kay in really good shape, no American Standards, and nothing European of high quality), including 2 Shens that my local college had (and maintained well).
- I've played over 400 jazz, driving bluegrass, and (a few) orchestra gigs.
- I've used guts, D'Addario Hybrids and Orchestrals, and Innovation Silver Slaps strings.
- Live and in studio I've mic'd my bass with everything from Neumanns to Pelusos to Rode ribbons to SM58s; Full Circle, Realist pickups, and K&K systems.

I realize that my experience is both limited, entry-level (by comparison), and anecdotal. But...

I've never had a problem with my neck joint.
I've never had an issue with left-hand fatigue.
In the opinion of FOH/studio engineers, other musicians (pros and amateurs), and audience members I get good projection and a quality tone.

Further, the two Shens I played were hard to get quality sound from, and I personally hated the full-sized necks.

I obviously don't have enough information to clearly validate my opinions on the issue, but I wanted to add that in my experience, Engelhardts are a fine instruments. A lot has to do with setup, and a good teacher to review one's technique and instrument (constraints?), perhaps.

And I also get a high number of compliments on my blonde bass, and have never been sneered at for it, including at the old time Appalachian music jams in this region nor on the jazz gigs I've played with regional performers.

Thanks, Jeff, for adding your experience. I appreciate it. I haven't ruled the Swingmaster out entirely, as it would be much easier to swing financially than most of the other alternatives. And honestly, Lemur did an excellent job of upgrading the bass and setting it up. I haven't mentioned it yet in this thread, but my first bass was a low-end, late-70s Engelhardt, complete with painted fingerboard. I never had any neck joint issues, either, and I made a lot of music on that bass. Despite your experience and mine, I may have a preference for a more "traditional" instrument (by which I mean, probably a non-blonde Shen) and a hybrid, as well. I should know by the end of the week what the numbers will let me do.

 

[vanderbrook]

Decision made. Saturday morning, I will pick up a Shen SB150 that my local luthier had rented to a university for a few months. It looks good, it sounds great (and will sound even better with Spiros) and it plays very nicely. Yes, it was significantly more money than the Engelhardt, which I maintain was a good-sounding, nicely set-up bass. Not twice as much, but ...a lot more. As @MattyBass pointed out, "you want a bass that makes you feel like a super hero, and instills confidence." While I've never felt like a super hero while playing the bass, I think the Shen will do a better job of projecting the image that I want to project as a bassist.

Thanks again to all who contributed to this thread and got me thinking. I appreciate the exchanges!

Now... Rev Solo II. Then, after one or two of the BGs sell, a bow... and so on...

 

[MattyBass]

Vanderbrook,
Congrats on your purchase, good sir.
May it bring your fingers the hippest grooves, and help you set the richest arco moods.

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

Good call. I used to own a Shen 150 that I strung with old Spiro Reds, and it served me very well. Sturdy as all hell but still sounded good.

I have a Rev Solo 1 on my EUB and like it, but be advised that placement is everything. If the pickup gets bumped out of place by a hair, it will sound like ass.

Bow-wise, have a look at the Glasser Braided Carbon Fiber. The German model I have is a little beefy but draws a good sound even with the lame factory hair, plays well, and is generally indestructible. Made in California, and under $500 retail.

 

[drurb]

While the Rev Solo is certainly sensitive to placement, it can withstand movement by more than a hair and maintain its sound. When fitted properly, it's not likely to move under normal circumstances. It's good to make pencil marks on it once it's fitted so that it can easily be returned to its desired position in the event that it's ever knocked out of place.

 

[vanderbrook]

While the Rev Solo is certainly sensitive to placement, it can withstand movement by more than a hair and maintain its sound. When fitted properly, it's not likely to move under normal circumstances. It's good to make pencil marks on it once it's fitted so that it can easily be returned to its desired position in the event that it's ever knocked out of place.

Good tip. Thanks!

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

I agree on the pencil mark trick 100%, but I have to diverge with drurb on the rest -- more than once I've shown up at a gig, plugged in, and sounded like a rhino with sinusitis. Lo and behold, the pickup was out of whack, and mine at least doesn't like a tight fit in the bridge.

 

[drurb]

I agree on the pencil mark trick 100%, but I have to diverge with drurb on the rest -- more than once I've shown up at a gig, plugged in, and sounded like a rhino with sinusitis. Lo and behold, the pickup was out of whack, and mine at least doesn't like a tight fit in the bridge.

Well, that's what makes different experiences valuable to consider. My Rev Solo had a snug fit that was easily moved by hand. Still, over years of dragging the bag over it when it was put on and taken off, it hardly ever moved. I can imagine that with a less-than-optimal installation, the Rev Solo would be quite sensitive to small movements. The contact surface of the bridge wing should be essentially flat as should the case of the pickup itself. I was fortunate to have both of mine fitted by its inventor(s). In any case, with the pencil marks, it's a rather simple practice to take a look, move it back into place, and make music. Practically speaking, then, it's hardly an issue of any substantial concern.