Bluetooth IEM Revisited

[seamonkey]

It turns out that a pipe organ might have 40ft between the pipes and the console
That is like 40ms right there in terms of speed of sound. Plus it takes a while when you hit a key for the air to produce a note.
It's well known that it just doesn't work. It is impossible for a simple human to compensate for that kind of delay. Organist can't play - it just doesn't work! Especially when you mix in a choir or orchestra.

Orchestras don't by themselves. There could be 40ft between some players. No way could they play with this kind of latency.
There's been some attempts to use a singer on stage with a pipe organ or orchesta some distance away. Something called an Opera. No way could this work.

Don't start me talking about marching bands, or drum and bugle ...

This is why real bands stand just inches from each other just to minimize the speed of sound latency.

All with a

 

[walterw]

Orchestras don't by themselves. There could be 40ft between some players. No way could they play with this kind of latency.

i play guitar in a band with a couple guys who travel the country playing electric bass and rock drums with various symphony orchestras, and they say the time lag and overall sense of where the beat is with even good orchestras is absolute mush. it's a "the music of [famous rock band] with your local symphony" kind of show, and the traveling "rock band" players almost have to ignore the orchestra entirely to hold the tunes together.

it's not even clear where that beat is when watching the conductor, your imaginary "click" happens somewhere along the middle of that path of the baton swinging around and it differs from conductor to conductor.

 

[Geri O]

i play guitar in a band with a couple guys who travel the country playing electric bass and rock drums with various symphony orchestras, and they say the time lag and overall sense of where the beat is with even good orchestras is absolute mush. it's a "the music of [famous rock band] with your local symphony" kind of show, and the traveling "rock band" players almost have to ignore the orchestra entirely to hold the tunes together.

it's not even clear where that beat is when watching the conductor, your imaginary "click" happens somewhere along the middle of that path of the baton swinging around and it differs from conductor to conductor.

Walter, I've been working with a few of those groups the last several years, mostly the Jeans 'n Classics guys. (I'd love to know which group your bandmates are with, shoot me a PM, if you like) Lately, with me finding a replacement for my FOH chair, I've taken to handling monitor duties on these shows when they come along and if I'm not gigging. I have a CL5 as a monitor desk, but I love sitting in the middle of the orchestra with an iPad during rehearsal mixing monitors and getting to know everyone.

Yeah, these shows are a struggle and our local orchestra is pretty good. But throw them a hihat to listen to for time, and their eyes glaze over. They absolutely despise being near a monitor, but they tolerate it well enough and they trust me to get a balance they can live with. But to get really picky, yeah, it's pretty mushy. And the orchestra patrons absolutely love every show of this type they bring in. Always a packed house.

Back on topic, you cannot equate the situation with orchestra members being 20, 30, 40, 50ft apart and playing with the phenomenon of listening to your voice in your head vs 30-40ms of delay in your earbud. As well as listening for time and balance while playing. Not at all the same thing. Not even the same topic anymore.

But as with all things, I get weary of making the case, so just carry on as each individual sees fit. I know and have what works for me.

 

[EastCoastThump]

It turns out that a pipe organ might have 40ft between the pipes and the console

Capt Obvious mode on: works fine for the kinds of parts pipe organs play, but it's one of the (many) reasons you don't hear pipe organs played in full-band tight funk arrangements. Not an issue if I'm playing the pipe organ, or the saw, or pad parts. But it's a groove killer on bass.

To move this from obstinate theories to real world practice, you can hear a 40 MS delay applied to a duplicated track right? And would you be happy to have your bass pulse that far off the drums' time?

 

[scotch]

"Bones, this 40ms latency shouldn't make any difference! It doesn't even register on my tri-corder."

"Dammit, Jim, I'm a bass player, not a doctor! All I know is we sound like a dang middle school wind band right now."

 

[ProdigalBassman]

Sound travels 10-11 feet in 10 mSec. You guys are telling me you can perceive that! If you ran a click track into speakers 11 feet apart and stood in front of one speaker, you would hear 2 clicks! Seriously? Even 20 feet apart I have difficult believing you could hear 2 clicks. How is it possible for bands to play on 40 ft wide stage and stay in time? That's 40 mSec from one end of the stage to another.
My real world experience is that with the system I use there is no perceivable delay. I offer it as a suggestion for people looking for a very affordable IEM that has worked for me for 2 years.

 

[seamonkey]

Capt Obvious mode on: works fine for the kinds of parts pipe organs play, but it's one of the (many) reasons you don't hear pipe organs played in full-band tight funk arrangements. Not an issue if I'm playing the pipe organ, or the saw, or pad parts. But it's a groove killer on bass.

To move this from obstinate theories to real world practice, you can hear a 40 MS delay applied to a duplicated track right? And would you be happy to have your bass pulse that far off the drums' time?

I can't see Humans playing those parts live, would Not have enough sense to account for the latency.

 

[jimfist]

Rhetorical question, but do you think there's a good reason why the engineers who produce digital mult-fx and modeling gear at the top levels (Fractal Audio AxeFxII, Kemper Profiling Amp, Digitech Helix, et al) try to keep their maximum digital I/O and processing latency under 5 msec (and I'm being generous, really closer to 2 msec)? If it didn't matter up to 20 or even 40 msec, why do they bother tightening up the latency so much?

I'm going to go with the engineers on this one, supported by my own personal experiences with latency in live performance (at the hands of computer software based modelers) which had me tolerating 6 msec, and absolutely losing my mind at 10-12 msec. Locking in on a 16th note hi-hat figure at a fast tempo will definitely put your "latency tolerance" to the test as a bassist.

JMHO. YMMV.

 

[scotch]

There's a physical connection when playing music on an instrument. If the expected response changes, it feels disorienting.

I haven't tried 'prodigalbassman's exact bluetooth setup, but I do know from practical on-the-job studio experience that any latency in the double digits makes it really hard to play my best.

 

[walterw]

If you ran a click track into speakers 11 feet apart and stood in front of one speaker, you would hear 2 clicks! Seriously? Even 20 feet apart I have difficult believing you could hear 2 clicks.

i could believe it, or at least a click with a bit of a smeared attack.

How is it possible for bands to play on 40 ft wide stage and stay in time? That's 40 mSec from one end of the stage to another.

easy, they're listening to monitors!

in clubs and such i can walk out front with my wireless and it's obvious past 20 or 30 feet away that if i didn't also have my in-ears to keep me in line i would start playing out of time with the band; any bleedthrough i get from the room is not locked in with what i'm hearing in my (analog so zero-latency) in-ears.

 

[Geri O]

I remember my first band at 19 years old and walking out to set the pa mix with the obligatory long guitar cable I had just made and the band yelling “yer behind, yer behind!”. I couldn’t figure out what was happening at first. I called the old electronics guru (who seemed to know literally everything) at my Dad’s music store to see if he had any idea what was happening.

That was the day I learned about sound delay from distance. Oh, and guitar cables longer than 20ft mixed with Precision passive electronics....

 

[ProdigalBassman]

Easy, they're listening to monitors!
.[/QUOTE]
Walter, you're assuming the electrical transmission of the audio signal through how many feet of wire to a monitor is instantaneous. It's not. My bachelor's is in electrical engineering. The delay of the signal from a guitar 40 feet away, going through the amp circuit, through the voice coil of the driver, the inertia of the driver cone, then picked up by the mic on the amp, through the mic cable to the mixer, through the mixer circuit, out the monitor cable, to the monitor voice coil, pushing the monitor driver cone adds up.
Back to topic which was my suggestion of trying an Apt -x Low Latency transmitter / receiver pair with earbuds of your choice as an IEM. Don't knock it if you haven't tried it! The caveat is to make sure the Tx AND Rx are both AptX LL.
Give it a try. You might be pleasantly surprised! It's worked well for me and my hope is it will for others too.
Joe

 

[scotch]

DEFINITELY important to keep an open mind to new ideas, technology, etc. While I have no need for a wireless bluetooth system, I'd be willing to try one. Well, maybe not on an actual gig where I'm contracted- but an at home test.

At the same time, being open to new ideas shouldn't discount the proven experience of folks that have, frankly, been there & done that.

 

[Robb Fesig]

Has anyone tried using something like Icecast and a streaming media client on a mobile device? How do DJs broadcast to multiple pairs of headphones for "quiet clubbing"?

 

[Geri O]

Easy, they're listening to monitors!
.

Walter, you're assuming the electrical transmission of the audio signal through how many feet of wire to a monitor is instantaneous. It's not. My bachelor's is in electrical engineering. The delay of the signal from a guitar 40 feet away, going through the amp circuit, through the voice coil of the driver, the inertia of the driver cone, then picked up by the mic on the amp, through the mic cable to the mixer, through the mixer circuit, out the monitor cable, to the monitor voice coil, pushing the monitor driver cone adds up.
Back to topic which was my suggestion of trying an Apt -x Low Latency transmitter / receiver pair with earbuds of your choice as an IEM. Don't knock it if you haven't tried it! The caveat is to make sure the Tx AND Rx are both AptX LL.
Give it a try. You might be pleasantly surprised! It's worked well for me and my hope is it will for others too.
Joe[/QUOTE]

Yes, I’ve seen this tried and measured. That figure is in the low microsecond numbers. Very low.

 

[bfields]

Rhetorical question, but do you think there's a good reason why the engineers who produce digital mult-fx and modeling gear at the top levels (Fractal Audio AxeFxII, Kemper Profiling Amp, Digitech Helix, et al) try to keep their maximum digital I/O and processing latency under 5 msec (and I'm being generous, really closer to 2 msec)? If it didn't matter up to 20 or even 40 msec, why do they bother tightening up the latency so much?

Maybe because they expect their equipment may be chained with a lot of other stuff? 2-5ms on its own may be overkill, but might be necessary if you're adding together a lot of similar delays.

I'm going to go with the engineers on this one, supported by my own personal experiences with latency in live performance (at the hands of computer software based modelers) which had me tolerating 6 msec, and absolutely losing my mind at 10-12 msec. Locking in on a 16th note hi-hat figure at a fast tempo will definitely put your "latency tolerance" to the test as a bassist.

You're already starting your stroke long before any sound comes out. The way I think of it, this is much more a process of listening to the results and adjusting your rhythm to match. As long as the latency's predictable it should be manageable....

But, that's just random thoughts off the top of my head, I'm not expert.

 

[EastCoastThump]

Has anyone tried using something like Icecast and a streaming media client on a mobile device? How do DJs broadcast to multiple pairs of headphones for "quiet clubbing"?

in that case, the system delay isn't material, b/c the listeners aren't also trying to play in tight time with a band that they're only hearing via their slightly delayed IEM mix.

 

[seamonkey]

A Brain has latency. Dr's can put a electrode on your head, play a sound into your ear, and measure the latency to your brain. It's not zero, and unless you are young, it's not as fast as it use to be. Musicians figure out how to cope. Digital snakes, Mixers, DSP's on amps, ... get use to some. Some figure out to live with more.

Visual latency is the worst. Look in a mirror at your right eye, then shift to your left eye. Your eyes are moving but you won't see them move. McGurk effect shows there's looping around in your brain as it tries to interpret the sound versus what you see.

 

[walterw]

Walter, you're assuming the electrical transmission of the audio signal through how many feet of wire to a monitor is instantaneous. It's not. My bachelor's is in electrical engineering.

then you know that apart from the distance from source to mic the signal is traveling through those wires and through the radio waves of wireless at a significant percentage of the speed of light. with an analog PA there is essentially no latency from mic to PA speaker.

with digital PA that’s what the designers are fighting with, trying to keep that total system latency below a couple ms.

bluetooth is just laughable, that’s not what it is for.

 

[Geri O]

So now we are debating milliseconds, microseconds (I contributed that one), the speed of sound, the speed of electrons, transducer speed, orchestra performance, pipe organs, etc...

Gee, whatever happened to “what’s the best bass for metal?”....?