Usually wireless headphones for multimedia don't use bluetooth. I have a set of wireless Sony headphones which receives signal from the base in infrared. Works very well, aside from consuming batteries like candy. Ordinarily the problem with transmitting signal over light is it's very easily blocked, but the idea here is that you're going to be watching your TV or computer monitor anyway, just put the transmitter right next to it; if you're losing audio, you probably can't see the screen either.
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Bluetooth without lag
- Thread starter Bikeguy57
- Start date
I set up MainStage a while back and default was about 15ms. 20ms is usually considered the maximum allowable. I had no problem running keys and a guitar with the default but as soon as I plugged in a bass, I found 15ms unusable and had to drop it down to 5ms. In part this may be that I'm more experienced on bass (and hence more sensitive), but I also think its also to do with the sharp attack, and having to lock in with the drums.
Shawn Crowder has great video on this () and shows musicians can reliably, consciously detect down to 20ms, but there was some evidence experienced drummers were subconsciously doing better.
For comparison in 10ms sound travels 3m, or 1ft per ms (approximately for easy remembering/calculation). On larger stages I found the band struggled to be as tight was we moved around the stage. It was almost certainly down to the fact we were moving away from our monitors and struggling with the delay. When we moved to IEM's suddenly we were all on less (and also consistent) latency and the big stage problem went away.
Bluetooth is just not designed for this.
Maybe I should clarify. In the past I wore hearing aids, and still retained some low frequency hearing. I used good AKG headphones, and cranked WAY up, without my hearing aids, I could hear my bass fine.
My hearing, even with the hearing aids, had deteriorated to the point where I needed a Cochlear Implant. The surgery was on April 15th. As sometimes happens, the implant was placed in my "good" ear, and I lost all hearing in that ear. I was now basically deaf at this point. This was not a problem, as I would always be wearing the implant, and a matching hearing aid in the other ear. The implant was activated on May 1st, and was a great success! My hearing has improved 100%, and being able to understand speech, and communicate has transformed my life. The downside is, no matter what I tried, the bass frequencies just overwhelmed the devices. I discovered that when I listened to isolated bass videos on Youtube, It sounded GREAT! I then purchased a Focusrite Scarlett solo, and ran it through Garage Band on my Mac. The frustrating thing is it sounded great, exactly what I was looking for. If not for the lag, it would have been perfect.
Headphones are not an option, as the sound has to come through my hearing devices.
Thanks again for all the input.
My hearing, even with the hearing aids, had deteriorated to the point where I needed a Cochlear Implant. The surgery was on April 15th. As sometimes happens, the implant was placed in my "good" ear, and I lost all hearing in that ear. I was now basically deaf at this point. This was not a problem, as I would always be wearing the implant, and a matching hearing aid in the other ear. The implant was activated on May 1st, and was a great success! My hearing has improved 100%, and being able to understand speech, and communicate has transformed my life. The downside is, no matter what I tried, the bass frequencies just overwhelmed the devices. I discovered that when I listened to isolated bass videos on Youtube, It sounded GREAT! I then purchased a Focusrite Scarlett solo, and ran it through Garage Band on my Mac. The frustrating thing is it sounded great, exactly what I was looking for. If not for the lag, it would have been perfect.
Headphones are not an option, as the sound has to come through my hearing devices.
Thanks again for all the input.
- May 16, 2009
- 625
- 743
- Disclosures
- Former Manager, Bass San Diego
Thinking outside the bun: just roll with the high latency option and transition to only playing ‘90s hip hop/neo soul/Dilla beats and have the most immaculate late on the beat feel of anyone around!
(I’m sorry for mucking up such a good thread—I don’t know why I’m like this
)
(I’m sorry for mucking up such a good thread—I don’t know why I’m like this
)I am bi - modal - a CI on one side and a high power aid on the other....
First, what CI do you have? The newer ones have direct BT communication (as do the newer aids) so no interface is needed. Like Cochlear brand Nucleus 8. The older ones use low power BT (what Apple iPhone uses for direct feed to a cell phone) It is a tad slow, but not by much.
Almost all CIs use low power BT, which is standard for TV streamers. I have a Resound aid and their TV Streamer is the same as Cochlear's Streamer, so I am able to feed direct audio to both devices with it. I use it in recording sessions - just get a feed off the headphone buss, and it works great. And that is a great test of lg, because I am hearing the drummer through the Streamer, while also listening to the bass through the streamer and the bass amp.. The Streamer is low power BT, so the is a very very small lag. What they don't tell you about the streamers is they are simply line level in devices, so any line level source, like headphone out on a mixing board or stereo system, will work. And they have a level control on the top to reduce "hot"signals.
You should have a cell phone control app for your cell phone, and the apps all have a provision for switching from CI to Streaming. And that is what you use to stream. The app will still allow the CI's mic to pick up sound and it has a balance / volume control. Great if the one stage level is too loud or not enough..
The great thing about the streamer is they have two power sources - a standard power supply and a mini USB, which it the same as Android phone charger cable. So you also can use a cell phone external battery to power it. The group I was play with had powered mains and monitors, so I just took a signal from the closest monitor XRL, and, using an XRL to stereo mini phone cable, plugged that straight into the TV streamer. I just had to remember to stand within 12 feet of it - Most of the time, since I was reading charts, I just put it on the music stand.
Finally, you can get one on ebay. They come with a bunch of adapter cables. Depending on teh make of CI, you may not need to go back to your Audi to get the streaming channel enabled on your device. My Cochlear brand CI and app simply "saw" it, once it was paired with the streamer, and you can pair it yourself - real simple. I may have a spare around here, somewhere. If you want to talk, Reverse this email addy --
moc.rr.dairt@godllams
First, what CI do you have? The newer ones have direct BT communication (as do the newer aids) so no interface is needed. Like Cochlear brand Nucleus 8. The older ones use low power BT (what Apple iPhone uses for direct feed to a cell phone) It is a tad slow, but not by much.
Almost all CIs use low power BT, which is standard for TV streamers. I have a Resound aid and their TV Streamer is the same as Cochlear's Streamer, so I am able to feed direct audio to both devices with it. I use it in recording sessions - just get a feed off the headphone buss, and it works great. And that is a great test of lg, because I am hearing the drummer through the Streamer, while also listening to the bass through the streamer and the bass amp.. The Streamer is low power BT, so the is a very very small lag. What they don't tell you about the streamers is they are simply line level in devices, so any line level source, like headphone out on a mixing board or stereo system, will work. And they have a level control on the top to reduce "hot"signals.
You should have a cell phone control app for your cell phone, and the apps all have a provision for switching from CI to Streaming. And that is what you use to stream. The app will still allow the CI's mic to pick up sound and it has a balance / volume control. Great if the one stage level is too loud or not enough..
The great thing about the streamer is they have two power sources - a standard power supply and a mini USB, which it the same as Android phone charger cable. So you also can use a cell phone external battery to power it. The group I was play with had powered mains and monitors, so I just took a signal from the closest monitor XRL, and, using an XRL to stereo mini phone cable, plugged that straight into the TV streamer. I just had to remember to stand within 12 feet of it - Most of the time, since I was reading charts, I just put it on the music stand.
Finally, you can get one on ebay. They come with a bunch of adapter cables. Depending on teh make of CI, you may not need to go back to your Audi to get the streaming channel enabled on your device. My Cochlear brand CI and app simply "saw" it, once it was paired with the streamer, and you can pair it yourself - real simple. I may have a spare around here, somewhere. If you want to talk, Reverse this email addy --
moc.rr.dairt@godllams
- Feb 12, 2006
- 60,963
- 5
- 220,653
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
The issue is not the audio interface, it’s the BT latency which is built into the protocol and is not user adjustable.
Is the lag uniform and synchronous, meaning everything is delayed the same amount in a predictable way? I also practice through a Scarlett and Garage Band, and with my normal hearing there's still a delay, not enough to bother me (unless I have a ludicrous amount of effects active within Garage Band) but big enough to be noticeable -- I deal with it by playing a little ahead. (I listen through the computer's audio out, NOT the Scarlett's).
If the lag is very long, nonuniform (the amount of latency changes) and/or asynch (each audio streams lags differently), it can be harder to cope with, and I don't have any constructive suggestions, sorry.
My mother has a similar hearing aid arrangement to yours and I can appreciate both the frustrations you're going through and how amazing it is to have this tech at your disposal.
Thanks for all the help guys. I have a non Bluetooth streaming device with a latency of less than 20ms. Anybody know if this will be acceptable? I will be using a focusrite Scarlett into Garage Band, and out through the headphone jack of my Mac. If I have to, I can just use the Scarlett without the computer, if that will decrease the latency problem. Even if there is a slight lag, is it possible to get used to it? I really appreciate everyones input!
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Ultimately you have to set it up and find out for yourself. For me 20ms sounds manageable, for others I bet it isn't and I wouldn't think worse of them for it. Consistent latency is more important than the amount of latency. (A lot of latency is bad, but a signal that swings between some-none-some etc. is worse, it throws you off.)
Most of the lag in my instrument -> Scarlett -> Mac -> USB -> DAC -> amp chain seems to come from Garage Band. I don't have the means to conclusively prove how much lag each hardware component contributes, just some handwavy guesses. The fewer effects (edit: the fewer effects used within GarageBand) there are, the less lag there is. An unprocessed or minimally processed signal (some EQ and compression, nothing else) has the least latency. Piling on a lot of overdrive, reverb and speaker modeling (edit: within GarageBand) gets noticeably laggy. I have an older Intel iMac, so a newer model should have snappier audio processing but I'd bet you could still drag it down if you tried.
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- Feb 12, 2006
- 60,963
- 5
- 220,653
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
I should have clarified - the comments about adding effects refer to using the ones built into GarageBand and depend on your Mac for processing. Any sound processing devices between your bass and the Scarlett are your own thing.
I had some limited experience with latency during the pandemic. Some friends and I were using Jamulus for online jam sessions. Different players had different latency. The software ensures that everybody gets a synchronized mix, but it arrives late.
People who played all-electric instruments did OK. They can only hear their electric sound, and their playing automatically adjusts to anticipate the delay.
Acoustic instruments, forget it. Your brain prioritizes the sound that comes early, and so you think you're playing ahead of the beat, and instinctively slow down. Even if you have headphones with good isolation.
I did much better on electric bass than upright bass for this reason. But it was just tiring and frustrating. If I stopped heavily enforcing the tempo for a split second, the whole band would fall apart.
People who played all-electric instruments did OK. They can only hear their electric sound, and their playing automatically adjusts to anticipate the delay.
Acoustic instruments, forget it. Your brain prioritizes the sound that comes early, and so you think you're playing ahead of the beat, and instinctively slow down. Even if you have headphones with good isolation.
I did much better on electric bass than upright bass for this reason. But it was just tiring and frustrating. If I stopped heavily enforcing the tempo for a split second, the whole band would fall apart.
