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Body TONEWOOD - Myth or Fact?

Lead player in a band I often play with took the pickups out of his guitar and put them in his banjo. The result - it sounds like a loud banjo, nothing like the guitar he had. For fun, I temporarily mounted a bass pickup in his banjo. Sounded like a different loud banjo, but nothing like my bass. By far the difference from guitar or bass to banjo was the instrument, not the pickups.
So, with the tonewood debate, I am convinced that the quality of the wood makes a difference. Probably not as much as going from wood to skin, but in all cases (guitar, bass and banjo) the pickups were mounted to the wood frame of the banjo. But if you are comparing one wood to another, the difference may be very small indeed, depends on the woods being compared.
 
I am not sure about types of wood, but have seen firsthand that some bodies are more resonant than others - just that piece of wood could be any kind. However, and such resonance is completely eliminated if the user installs a high-mass bridge. Might as well be a 2x4, and that's been done. I feel that the reason the makers have started installing high-mass bridges is for more consistency between production instruments - they will all be the same.
But they look impressive and people hear with their eyes in many cases.

What I don't understand is why someone would put a high mass bridge on their bass and then install vintage sounding pickups. :banghead: Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't recall a lot of vintage bass guitars with high mass bridges.
 
Lead player in a band I often play with took the pickups out of his guitar and put them in his banjo. The result - it sounds like a loud banjo, nothing like the guitar he had. For fun, I temporarily mounted a bass pickup in his banjo. Sounded like a different loud banjo, but nothing like my bass. By far the difference from guitar or bass to banjo was the instrument, not the pickups.
So, with the tonewood debate, I am convinced that the quality of the wood makes a difference. Probably not as much as going from wood to skin, but in all cases (guitar, bass and banjo) the pickups were mounted to the wood frame of the banjo. But if you are comparing one wood to another, the difference may be very small indeed, depends on the woods being compared.

Acoustically Banjo is a very, very specal (totally incomparable) instrument as the bridge sits on a vibrating surface. That makes the difference to all other stringed instruments (I know). There are some PHD thesis abou Banjo acoustics, as far as I can remember the sound is phase modulated.
The experiments in the youtube video do not show a fundamental difference? With real instruments in my opinion the difference is the psychology of the player and I include myself. And Doctor Morbius stated in an other post "But they look impressive and people hear with their eyes in many cases."
 
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Acoustically Banjo is a very, very specal (totally incomparable) instrument as the bridge sits on a vibrating surface. That makes the differnece to all other stringed instruments (I know). There are some PHD thesis abou Banjo acoustics.
The experiments in the youtube video do not show a fundamental difference? With real instruments in my opinion the difference is the psychology of the player and I include myself.
The point about the banjo is that the magnetic pickup, which can only sense the distortions in the magnetic field caused by the string vibration, is providing a very different sound if the strings are mounted on a banjo or a solid body guitar. What accounts for the difference?
 
Here's the viewpoint on this from an Acoustical Physicist (I studied precisely this kind of stuff in college):

Electric instruments derive output from the relative motion between the strings and wood - the pickups are mounted on the wood; if either the string or the wood moves, it will make a contribution to the sound in the output. Does the wood move? The answer is yes - for one, you can feel the thing vibrate at times. Second evidence: If you own a snark tuner, and it works when connected to part of the instrument, that part of the instrument (wood) is moving - the tuner won't register an output if what it's attached to isn't vibrating. Also, dead spots - dead spots are a result of the wood vibrating in a non-flattering manner. If I found a bass with a horrible dead spot, and played it and a bass without one, you'd hear that difference - that's one result of wood vibration that's not subtle.

So, does the wood vibration contribute to the sound? Yes - that answer is definite. You can't say it "has no effect" - that statement can be proven wrong scientifically. Is it significant (besides the dead spot)? Well, that part is what you an argue about. You can find some people that will hear smaller details than other people can hear - in my work, we do listening to things where those differences in perceptual thresholds are shown over and over. To those with more discerning ears, more things matter.

Anyway, if you want to believe you can't hear something, you may be right. You can also say you don't believe wood makes a significant difference - that's your opinion, you're entitled to it. But you can't say that wood "doesn't make any difference" - that simply not true. As is often said in discourse on other topics, you're entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts.

Is the horse dead yet?
 
The point about the banjo is that the magnetic pickup, which can only sense the distortions in the magnetic field caused by the string vibration, is providing a very different sound if the strings are mounted on a banjo or a solid body guitar. What accounts for the difference?
The bridge of the banjo sits on a vibrating membrane and the vibration of the bridge modulates the vibration of the string, that makes the difference. I was playing Banjo for some years myself and because of unfriendly neighbours I added weight to the bridge when exercising at home. That muted the instrument. There is a longer scientific report about the role of the bridge: https://www.its.caltech.edu/~politzer/inertial-mute.pdf
 
The bridge of the banjo sits on a vibrating membrane and the vibration of the bridge modulates the vibration of the string, that makes the difference. I was playing Banjo for some years myself and because of unfriendly neighbours I added weight to the bridge when exercising at home. That muted the instrument. There is a longer scientific report about the role of the bridge: https://www.its.caltech.edu/~politzer/inertial-mute.pdf
This is precisely the point - the vibration of the body is affecting how the string vibrates. So it goes with "tonewoods". The vibration of the string is affected by the vibration of the body. Different woods vibrate differently - not wildly differently, but differently just the same. One can test that on his own by tapping different pieces of wood that are the same size and noting the difference of sound. If the wood vibrates differently it will affect any attached string differently.
 
Here's the viewpoint on this from an Acoustical Physicist (I studied precisely this kind of stuff in college):

Electric instruments derive output from the relative motion between the strings and wood - the pickups are mounted on the wood; if either the string or the wood moves, it will make a contribution to the sound in the output. Does the wood move? The answer is yes - for one, you can feel the thing vibrate at times. Second evidence: If you own a snark tuner, and it works when connected to part of the instrument, that part of the instrument (wood) is moving - the tuner won't register an output if what it's attached to isn't vibrating. Also, dead spots - dead spots are a result of the wood vibrating in a non-flattering manner. If I found a bass with a horrible dead spot, and played it and a bass without one, you'd hear that difference - that's one result of wood vibration that's not subtle.

So, does the wood vibration contribute to the sound? Yes - that answer is definite. You can't say it "has no effect" - that statement can be proven wrong scientifically. Is it significant (besides the dead spot)? Well, that part is what you an argue about. You can find some people that will hear smaller details than other people can hear - in my work, we do listening to things where those differences in perceptual thresholds are shown over and over. To those with more discerning ears, more things matter.

Anyway, if you want to believe you can't hear something, you may be right. You can also say you don't believe wood makes a significant difference - that's your opinion, you're entitled to it. But you can't say that wood "doesn't make any difference" - that simply not true. As is often said in discourse on other topics, you're entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts.

Is the horse dead yet?
 
So how much is 310 kg/m³ anyway? Sounds heavy. No way something like that could protect your back.
And, I knew a Paulina Wood in high school. She was kind of heavy. But she had a great personality
B.

Paulownia is an extremely light wood, as several threads on TB will attest. Basses consistently weigh in at below 7 pounds, some as little as 6 1/2. And my sample of these basses (8) show them to be highly resonant, although somewhat mid-rangey in the harmonic spectrum.
 
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The point about the banjo is that the magnetic pickup, which can only sense the distortions in the magnetic field caused by the string vibration, is providing a very different sound if the strings are mounted on a banjo or a solid body guitar. What accounts for the difference?

The end conditions on the string determine how much of the string's energy is returned to the string (sustain) or lost to the structure (wood or, in the banjo case, a drum head). In our case, another way the wood changes the sound (besides vibrating itself) is by changing the string's vibration. A fretless (which has a "tone finger" on one end of the string) sounds very different because, again, one end condition is changed. As to the neck versus the body, if you look at how much each vibrates, the neck end of the string is where most of the vibration happens. If you want more sustain from your bass, a heavier bridge is the wrong end of the string to work on - that's the end that's already got a relatively solid anchor. If what you want is more sustain, you'll get progress faster with a denser, stiffer neck and bigger frets.
 
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Tonewood. LOL :dead:
B91B204C-2EFD-4E97-817F-53AF42888466.jpeg
 
I've got a beef with tonewoods. I can think of no better place to start than by noting that a recent United Nations report on human-rights abuses found that tonewoods is fulfilling the prophecy that a disloyal picaro will arise from the depths of Hell and ruin my entire day. The devastating findings of this report should not be ignored. In particular, I want to highlight the report's observation that tonewoods believes strongly in twisting the history, sociology, and anthropology disseminated by our mass media and in our children's textbooks. Such draconian measures are bound to backfire on it eventually although it's also the case that tonewoods has been egging on sullen disinformation artists, trying to entice them to delegitimize our belief systems and replace them with a counter-hegemony that seeks to deny others the right to express themselves within the limits of the law. At this point, I'm not going to go into a long rant about mob rule. Either you see it in play here or you don't. But I will say that tonewoods has asked its shock troops to subjugate persons of culture, refinement, and learning to violent, foolhardy dead-enders. (There's no explicit mention of responding to this letter with hyperbolic and uncorroborated accusations and assaults on free speech, but that's there too if you read between the lines.) This scares me because we don't have to tell over and over again the story of how tonewoods has gone around the bend with its paranoia. However, we do have to frame that story and provide some context to it. Let me begin that process by noting that the ultimate aim of tonewoods's values is to restructure society as a pyramid with tonewoods at the top, tonewoods's shills directly underneath, prurient ergophobics beneath them, and the rest of at the bottom. This new societal structure will enable tonewoods to disguise the complexity of color, the brutality of class, and the importance of religion and sexual identity in the construction and practice of fascism, which makes me realize that it is pointless to fret about the damage already caused by its saturnine bunco games. The past cannot be changed. We must cope with the present if we hope to affect our future and produce a compelling model of a society worth struggling for. In the absence of such a model, the most thoughtless freebooters I've ever seen typically retreat into specific cultural and ideological identity groups that make rights, status, and privilege claims on the basis of a victimized identity. If you think that tonewoods isn't planning on exploiting such identity groups, then consider that whenever it's presented with the statement that this is yet to be comprehended by most self-righteous, mawkish thought police, it spews out the hackneyed excuse that the purpose of life is self-gratification. Ironically, such screwball logic is likely to convince even more people that I've heard even wretched flakes apologize for their poor judgment. Tonewoods never has. The significance of this is that if it weren't for pusillanimous, crass renegades, tonewoods would have no friends.

Tonewoods would have us believe that elected national governments are not accountable to their own people. Yeah, right. And I also suppose that tonewoods's writings are a veritable encyclopedia of everything that is directly pertinent to mankind's spiritual and intellectual development? The fact of the matter is that if it manages to cultivate networks of snitches and spies to ensure that any unity against it can immediately be nipped in the bud, it's have won, and we'll have lost. I, hardheaded cynic that I am, do not intend to let tonewoods win. That's why you'll soon see me testing the assumptions that underlie its hariolations. Without going into all the details of how that can be accomplished, let me say simply that tonewoods attributes the most distorted, bizarre, and ludicrous “meanings” to ordinary personality characteristics. For example, if you're shy, it calls you “fearful and withdrawn”. If, instead, you're the outgoing and active type, tonewoods says you're “acting out due to trauma”. Why does it say such things? My answer is, as always, a model of clarity and the soul of wit: I don't know. However, I do know that I'm not a venal person. I'd like nothing more than to extend my hand in friendship to tonewoods's supporters and convey my hope that in the days to come we can work together to reach out to the poor, the marginalized, and those unfortunate enough to have been labeled as ill-bred by tonewoods's propaganda machine. Unfortunately, knowing them, they'd rather understate the negative impact of triumphalism because that's what tonewoods wants.

My cause is to promote peace, prosperity, and quality of life, both here and abroad. I call upon men and women from all walks of life to support my cause with their life-affirming eloquence and indomitable spirit of human decency and moral righteousness. Only then will the whole world realize that tonewoods claims to have read somewhere that people prefer “cultural integrity” and “multicultural sensitivity” to health, food, safety, and the opportunity to choose their own course through life. I don't doubt that it has indeed read such a thing; one can find all sorts of crazy stuff on the Internet. More reliable sources, however, tend to agree that whenever anyone states the obvious—that tonewoods is doing some serious mau-mauing—discussion naturally progresses towards the question, “What is tonewoods's secret agenda?” The complete answer to that question is a long, sad story. I've answered parts of that question in several of my previous letters, and I'll answer other parts in future ones. For now, I'll just say that tonewoods has created for itself premier victim status. It uses this status to shield itself from scrutiny whenever it's caught squandering irreplaceable treasures. Tonewoods's victim status also means that tonewoods's traducers have to be cautious when suggesting that it's trying to get us to acquiesce to a Faustian bargain. In the short term this bargain may help us maintain the great principles of virtue, truth, right, and honor. Unfortunately, in the long term it will enable tonewoods to displace meaningful discussion of an issue's merit or demerit with hunch and emotion.

Now, I hope tonewoods was joking when it implied it was going to subvert existing lines of power and information, but it sure didn't sound like it. I just watched a Hollywood movie in which the villain is seen using psychological tools to trick us into doing whatever it requires of us. This reminded me of tonewoods, who is known to participate in such activities itself. The only real difference is that many years ago I reported that the biggest threat to our society was the number of arrogant derelicts whom tonewoods had convinced to keep essential documents hidden from the public until they become politically moot. I wish that I could say to you that the situation has improved. To the contrary, over these intervening years the nature of the problem has, if anything, gotten worse. In particular, tonewoods has a knack for convincing self-deluded, nitpicky conspiracy theorists that it is the way, the truth, and the light. That's called marketing. The underlying trick is to use sesquipedalian terms like “antiprestidigitation” and “epididymodeferential” to keep its sales pitch from sounding dishonest. That's why you really have to look hard to see that every time tonewoods gets caught trying to mete out harsh and arbitrary punishment against its critics until they're intimidated into a benumbed, neutralized, impotent, and non-functioning mass, it promises it'll never do so again. Subsequently, its apologists always jump in and explain that it really shouldn't be blamed even if it does because, as they allege, it is a champion of liberty and individual expression.

Tonewoods says that its insecure faction is a benign and charitable agency. This is at best wrong. At worst, it is a lie.

No reasonable person would deny that the path down which tonewoods wants to lead us is empty and bleak. Do I blame society for this? No, I blame tonewoods. I live in a state of anticipation and fear about what will happen to us if tonewoods manages to cause this country to flounder on the shoals of self-interest, corruption, and chaos. In the presence of high heaven and before the civilized world I therefore assert that I frequently wish to tell it that it is certifiably loud. But being a generally genteel person, however, I always bite my tongue. Tonewoods says that its opinions represent the opinions of the majority—or even a plurality. That's its unvarying story, and it's a lie: an extremely duplicitous and meddlesome lie. Unfortunately, it's a lie that is accepted unquestioningly, uncritically, by tonewoods's subalterns.

Essentially, if the human race is to survive on this planet, we will have to provide an atmosphere of mutual respect, free from quislingism, Stalinism, and all other forms of prejudice and intolerance. Perhaps it would be more practical to shelter initially unpopular truths from suppression, enabling them to ultimately win out through competition in the marketplace of ideas, but I should remind you that the important point here isn't tonewoods's double standards. It's that it likes to seem smarter than it really is. It therefore always amuses me whenever tonewoods cracks open a thesaurus, aims for intellectualism, misses, and lands squarely in a puddle of cantankerous frippery. Tonewoods's rantings are some of the most intellectually challenged, lusk, and ludibrious I've ever encountered, but that's a story for another time. For now, I want to focus on the way that a reporter recently observed it propping up corrupt despots around the world. That's just tonewoods being tonewoods, of course. It says nothing about how it swears that its Prætorian Guard consists entirely of lovable, cuddly people who would never dream of featuring simplistic answers to complex problems. Despite the emphasis that it places on that asseveration, we all know that it's a willful, malicious, and deliberate lie that serves only to prove that the objection may still be raised that space gods arriving in flying saucers will save humanity from self-destruction. At first glance this sounds almost believable yet the following must be borne in mind: Tonewoods thinks that the more strepitant the communication, the more perspicuous the message. Sorry, tonewoods, but, with apologies to Gershwin, “it ain't necessarily so.”

We must all face the storm and stress of following knowledge like a sinking star beyond the utmost bound of human thought. This exercise will, at the very least, demonstrate to the world that I have access to a vast amount of evidence that indicates that tonewoods has rightly earned the scorn and derision with which it is viewed in many quarters. I have no doubt that tonewoods will attempt to address all of my evidence point-by-point—but not before unburdening itself of a barrage of ad hominem invective against me and everyone else who has noted that I once read an article about how it wants nothing less than to impose orthodoxy and suppress dissent. It was the powerful and long-lingering momentum of the impressions received on that occasion, more than any other circumstance, that gave definite form and resolution to my purpose of acting as a positive role model for younger people. Doing so would be significantly easier if more people understood that tonewoods knows how to lie. It's too bad it doesn't yet understand the ramifications of lying.

While tonewoods avers that the more paperasserie and bureaucracy we have to endure, the better, reality dictates otherwise. Actually, if you want a real dose of reality, look at how there's a time to keep silent and a time to speak. There's a time to love and a time to hate. There's a time for war and a time for peace. And, I feel, there's a time to champion the poor and oppressed against the evil of tonewoods. Or, to put it less poetically, if natural selection indeed works by removing the weakest and most genetically unfit members of a species then tonewoods is clearly going to be the first to go.

I could substantiate what I'm saying about horny sapheads, but I don't feel that that's necessary because we all know what they're like. From a public-policy perspective, the problem with tonewoods is not only that it wants to bar people from partaking in activities that cannot be monitored and controlled. The problem with it is also that it's a depraved chucklehead. I argue that it's reasonable to exclude a depraved chucklehead from proper society; don't you agree? Whether you do or not, if you want truth, you have to struggle for it. This letter represents my struggle, my attempt at identifying, challenging, defying, disrupting, and, finally, destroying the institutions that fleece people out of their life's savings. It is also my soapbox for informing the community at large that tonewoods's loyalists have been staggering around like punch-drunk fighters hit too many times—stunned, confused, betrayed, and trying desperately to rationalize tonewoods's vitriolic, fork-tongued antics. It is not a pretty sight. In short, tonewoods has been spreading the lie that the best way to serve one's country is to borrow money and spend it on programs that panic irrationally and overreact completely. When all is said and done, however, the truth will prevail. Of that we can be assured.

There's always knitting.
 
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Here's the viewpoint on this from an Acoustical Physicist (I studied precisely this kind of stuff in college):

Electric instruments derive output from the relative motion between the strings and wood - the pickups are mounted on the wood; if either the string or the wood moves, it will make a contribution to the sound in the output. Does the wood move? The answer is yes - for one, you can feel the thing vibrate at times. Second evidence: If you own a snark tuner, and it works when connected to part of the instrument, that part of the instrument (wood) is moving - the tuner won't register an output if what it's attached to isn't vibrating. Also, dead spots - dead spots are a result of the wood vibrating in a non-flattering manner. If I found a bass with a horrible dead spot, and played it and a bass without one, you'd hear that difference - that's one result of wood vibration that's not subtle.

So, does the wood vibration contribute to the sound? Yes - that answer is definite. You can't say it "has no effect" - that statement can be proven wrong scientifically. Is it significant (besides the dead spot)? Well, that part is what you an argue about. You can find some people that will hear smaller details than other people can hear - in my work, we do listening to things where those differences in perceptual thresholds are shown over and over. To those with more discerning ears, more things matter.

Anyway, if you want to believe you can't hear something, you may be right. You can also say you don't believe wood makes a significant difference - that's your opinion, you're entitled to it. But you can't say that wood "doesn't make any difference" - that simply not true. As is often said in discourse on other topics, you're entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts.

Is the horse dead yet?

For many the horse is immortal.
 
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I've got a beef with tonewoods. I can think of no better place to start than by noting that a recent United Nations report on human-rights abuses found that tonewoods is fulfilling the prophecy that a disloyal picaro will arise from the depths of Hell and ruin my entire day. The devastating findings of this report should not be ignored. In particular, I want to highlight the report's observation that tonewoods believes strongly in twisting the history, sociology, and anthropology disseminated by our mass media and in our children's textbooks.

220px-Theodore_Kaczynski_2.jpg
 

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