Double Bass Bowing Gut strings

[ricobasso]

Most of my home practice is arco on gut strings which I'm finding very difficult. I have EP slaps and they have a tendency to squeak on the plain gut G and D no matter what I do. They seem to require a lot of bow pressure to start off, then you have to ease off or they choke. This makes it very difficult to get my speed up.

I've been playing DB since the early 70s, initially classical steel string arco, more recently pizz with gut strings when playing bluegrass and rockabilly in different bands. I only have one bass.

I have two German style bows, white and black hair. I've tried 4 types of rosin and going with high and low bow hair tension but the squeaking persists. Cleaning the rosin off the strings helps somewhat, but only for a few minutes before it builds up again. This is clearly not the solution.

Any hints gratefully received.

 

[Francois Blais]

Calling @LouisF for help!

 

[LouisF]

Merci, Francois! My "trick" for bowing plain guts is to use a light rosin, lightest bow you have (I use an Arcus, 118 gr), with arm weight and a loose grip (do not squeeze or pinch the frog). Also (how do I describe this)... the "arc" (down bow) or "scoop" (up bow) of the bow has to be a little deeper/higher than normal, so that you have the sense of the bow "plucking" the string when it makes the stroke, as opposed to riding the top of the string (which produces the squeak):







Hope this helps!

 

[ricobasso]

Thanks for the speedy reply. I will try what you advise and report back if and when I make progress.

 

[LouisF]

Good luck -- and be patient. S-L-O-W attention to bow detail will pay off. IMO
Louis

 

[ricobasso]

btw my bows are about 150gm and my lightest rosins are Gaston Brohan Oak Bass Rosin and Hindesine Cello. Any good IYO? I don't have any trouble bowing steel strings at all.

 

[LouisF]

Hi

This is all from a strictly amateur POV: 1) I would get a simpler more middle of the road rosin like Jade or Wiedoft or Shermans or even Petz #2. I'm one of the few people on TB who doesn't like the Oak (maybe because of gut strings). Cello rosin won't cut it.

The 150 gr bow might be part of the issue. Get a cheap carbon fiber bow if you can, and work with that for a while. It probably won't sound half as good as what you are playing with, but it will show you if the weight (especially as you go to the G string) is an issue (I suspect it might be. I saw this on line for starters: (https://www.amazon.co.uk/LIEKE-Carb...48?keywords=bass+rosin&qid=1656453948&sr=8-48)

Baroque and transitional bows are much lighter:

https://bridgewoodandneitzert.london/product/bass-bow-by-w-e-hill-sons-dragonetti-style-c-1820-5/
H.R. Pfretzschner baroque bass Viola da Gamba bow w/ German-style frog - Brobst Violin Shop

If you can get an hour with Chi-chi Nwanoku (or one of her students) it would be MUCH better than anything I can tell you. She's fabulous:

Video – Chi-chi Nwanoku

 

[crd]

Other people to not have a problem but I cannot stand bowing gut unless all four strings on the bass are gut. Going between a high tension E and A and a low tension D and G with the bow drives me nuts although it works well for pizz. After years of having a d and a g Gamut strings paired with synthetic A and E strings, I finally matched them with the wrapped Gamut a and e and bowing is so much easier.

Also, oak rosin should be fine with gut strings. I love it.

 

[ricobasso]

The 150 gr bow might be part of the issue. Get a cheap carbon fiber bow if you can, and work with that for a while. It probably won't sound half as good as what you are playing with, but it will show you if the weight (especially as you go to the G string) is an issue

I had an oddball bow I bought on eBay on a whim which is only 77gm. I dug it out and tried it with the Jade rosin. So far so good. I don't like the light feel, specially on the lower strings but it's much easier to prevent squealing on the top two plain guts. I will persevere with it. I have a CF French bow but it's no lighter than my wood French bow. I only use German style bows these days and the oddball light one is OK with the German grip.

I have two wood German bows; one round section, the other hex. I may try rounding the hex to lose some mass.

This is all from a strictly amateur POV: 1) I would get a simpler more middle of the road rosin like Jade or Wiedoft or Shermans or even Petz #2. I'm one of the few people on TB who doesn't like the Oak (maybe because of gut strings). Cello rosin won't cut it.

My first teacher recommended HS Cello rosin. It was fine with steel strings, however, I got some Jade. It is ok, but not immediately obviously different from the oak or HS cello. So far I've only tried the Jade with my oddball bow but I'll keep experimenting.

 

[Jon Stefaniak]

Soft rosins will squeak less. I like Wiedoft on plain guts - rounder attack. I love the bite of Pop's on steel wrapped strings, but gut strings sort of bite the bow a bit themselves.

Work hard and relentlessly on the guts with a bow. They are much less forgiving than steel and will give you more "feedback" when you do something wrong. You will know you are bowing right if you make big beautiful sounds on plain guts. Whatever you learn will transfer back to modern strings, but not the other way around.

 

[overit]

I've switched to Obligatos from a full gut set with plain D&G and copper wrapped E&A. I found the best arco sound and ease of playing amongst all these strings, for me, is with the plain D&G on my old plywood Kay. I didn't like the tuning stability of the wrapped E&A as well as the windings under the bow. I realize this isn't an orchestra grade instrument and I don't play in one but I do enjoy practicing etudes.

I use a 134g German bow and Kolstein all-weather, very lightly. I got into arco more when my bass was strung with guts so I suppose it's a "you're used to what you're used to" but any users think that going plain gut E&A (which is quite expensive) a worthwhile pursuit if I'm most comfortable bowing plain gut or just learn to bow the Obligatos? I like the sound and feel of both strings, probably the gut sound more in general and arco as mentioned.

Perhaps the only downside is if I want to join a community orchestra in the future? Would that even be an issue in a community orchestra? I'm also in the desert with very low humidity, so that might have to do with how gut works for me as well as my bass. I believe I read somewhere here that arco on guts on plywood has been more forgiving than on a carved bass for some people? I do think one day I will eventually get a carved bass, if that matters.

 

[LouisF]

I play in several community orchestras (and am principal in one) and play with plain gut GDA Spiro light E/C and nobody complains. The challenge might be traveling and setting up in different halls etc, where the gut strings will take time to adjust and stabilize (especially if there is air conditioning). However, IMO, it's worth it.

 

[overit]

I play in several community orchestras (and am principal in one) and play with plain gut GDA Spiro light E/C and nobody complains. The challenge might be traveling and setting up in different halls etc, where the gut strings will take time to adjust and stabilize (especially if there is air conditioning). However, IMO, it's worth it.

Do you think the constant low humidity factor here in Vegas would make it easier to deal with? It's been a while since I've brought my bass out anywhere.

 

[LouisF]

Depends on what they do with the hall. I've had guts on this bass for almost two years (maybe more, it's a Covid blur). Last week we played the Dvorak New World in a big, old theater here in LA. They turn the stage lights on for the sound check; minor pitch adjustment, then everything's fine. We take our break and come back on stage and they have turned the air conditioning on. The bass is maybe a 1/4 tone sharp and feels like it's ready to explode. It took me a good twenty minutes to get it to settle.

 

[overit]

Depends on what they do with the hall. I've had guts on this bass for almost two years (maybe more, it's a Covid blur). Last week we played the Dvorak New World in a big, old theater here in LA. They turn the stage lights on for the sound check; minor pitch adjustment, then everything's fine. We take our break and come back on stage and they have turned the air conditioning on. The bass is maybe a 1/4 tone sharp and feels like it's ready to explode. It took me a good twenty minutes to get it to settle.

Yikes! Actually that does bring me back to pre-Covid when I last brought my bass out to rehearsals and remember there were some finnicky days. I guess that's what makes them feel so alive though. Thanks for sharing.

 

[ricobasso]

Does anyone recognise my oddball bow?
I'd like to know what it is and what it was intended for.
BTW for those who don't know, the EP slaps I mentioned in the OP are plain gut only on the top G and D. The A and E are synthetic cores overwound with flat steel.

 

[LouisF]

I have one of those, too: Baroque snakewood bow made in China. I take it out from time to time

 

[AGCurry]

Perhaps the only downside is if I want to join a community orchestra in the future? Would that even be an issue in a community orchestra? I'm also in the desert with very low humidity, so that might have to do with how gut works for me as well as my bass. I believe I read somewhere here that arco on guts on plywood has been more forgiving than on a carved bass for some people? I do think one day I will eventually get a carved bass, if that matters.

Plywood basses generally attenuate higher frequencies, so the "wheeze" of bowed guts won't be heard so much from plywood as from a carved bass. On the other hand, you may not get as much fundamental from a plywood bass, so the loss of lows may "cancel" the loss of highs. It's hard to predict without knowing the particular instrument(s) involved.

My experience with community orchestras is that nobody cares what strings you're using, although if you're making unpleasant sounds you might get some attention.