Double Bass Bowing help for Bach Orch. Suite No. 2 bm (BMV 1067)

[WillBurch90]

One of the pieces in my chamber orchestra currently is Bach's Orchestral Suite No. 2 in B minor for flute, strings and continuo (BWV 1067).

The bass part and cello parts are identical, so we end up playing notes at rather fast speeds. One of our teachers have suggested I play with the baroque bowing style with my French-style bow, by holding the bow overhand by the stick itself, not directly from the end of the frog.

This helps with playing softly and lightly, but offers no solution with the faster parts of the piece, primarily the Overture and Badinerie. I find it very difficult to play the faster quavers and semiquavers without them sounding messy, as if I were scrubbing the notes instead of playing them individually. The teacher has suggested that I play every other note in the bar (i.e. 1, 3, 5, 7), though I am wondering if anyone plays Baroque music often and has a French-style bow bowing technique which allows for playing of fast notes without them sounding messy? Or do most experienced players tend to play every other note as well?

Thanks!

 

[PaulCannon]

Play what's on the page. While you certainly could make a musicological argument that violonists in Bach's time would simplify their parts, we modern players do not.

I like to play this piece as you described, choked up on the bow a bit. Maybe two or three inches further up than normal. Experiment with your hand placement a bit. Also, make sure you're not holding the stick with the tips of your fingers (like it was a dirty tissue), but that it's inside your hand.

If you ever have the chance to, I suggest playing with a Baroque bow to see what it's like. It can be a little "scrubby" sometimes. Not disgustingly so, but it certainly lacks that sticky, rosined-up articulation players today enjoy.

 

[Andrew McGregor]

If you were doing that with a Baroque bow, either violin or gamba style (in other words, the predecessors of modern French and German bows), you'd be forced to play those fast notes right on the balance point of your bow. So, try that, use a fast bow and light weight slightly further from the bridge than you normally would (maybe just over the end of the fingerboard), and see what happens.

Oh, and let your rosin wear down quite a lot, it won't work with a ton of rosin in the bow. Maybe cleaning the rosin off your strings will help too, depending on how much is on there.

 

[neilG]

One of our teachers have suggested I play with the baroque bowing style with my French-style bow, by holding the bow overhand by the stick itself, not directly from the end of the frog.

Complete and utter nonsense. Every note in that piece is playable with a modern bow held normally. Just work it up to tempo in the usual methodical way that we all have to.

 

[PaulCannon]

Complete and utter nonsense. Every note in that piece is playable with a modern bow held normally. Just work it up to tempo in the usual methodical way that we all have to.

What about it is nonsense? I do it. My teacher does it. It's a fairly common method of playing Baroque music. The point isn't to make it any more playable, but to alter the quality of articulation and, to a lesser extent, timbre.

 

[Andrew McGregor]

Exactly… it won't hurt or help the playability, but it can help the style, if the ensemble is planning on playing it that way.

 

[WillBurch90]

Thanks so much for all your help! I suppose the techniques would apply to all types of Baroque parts where the notes are especially fast, I'm going to try them out straight away.

R.e. the Baroque bow, I've certainly seen them around on the internet, they look great and suitable for if you really want the authentic performance feel, sadly I'm still at school and rely on my parents for funds but when I go to uni in about a year and a half's time it looks like a really good investment.

 

[neilG]

The point isn't to make it any more playable........

That's my point; the OP is having an issue moving the bow quickly back and forth. He simply hasn't got the control yet and relinquishing control by holding the bow in an arguably less controllable grip isn't going to help him. Whether or not it makes the sound more "authentic" is extremely debateable and another issue altogether.

 

[Bill Bentgen]

That's my point; the OP is having an issue moving the bow quickly back and forth. He simply hasn't got the control yet and relinquishing control by holding the bow in an arguably less controllable grip isn't going to help him. Whether or not it makes the sound more "authentic" is extremely debateable and another issue altogether.

I couldn't agree more. If you can't play the notes fast enough with the bow hold you use every day, you'll have a harder time playing them using a strange hold on a bow that's not designed for it.

I told a conductor once that after he knocked the church temperature down to 60 degrees, bought me a set of hand-made gut strings, sent a horse carriage to my house to pick me and my bass up, threw all of the women out of the orchestra, knocked "A" down to about 430 hz, and wore a wig while he beat time with a rolled up piece of paper, then he could start telling me how to hold my bow.

 

[Prescottissimo]

My friend, Bill, it seems you and I have a lot in commen beyond us sharing a love of basses strung with 5. Would you do me the kind favor of directing me to the porchestra which you are describing?
Sounds like a real Back to the PAst type place.

That would really impart the spirit of "period poerformace" wouldn't you say? Maybe all thouse who preach period style should truly go all the way to walk their speaking.
Otherwise they simply are only giving far less than 110$%, and I'd say more like 49%.

And, friends, the best way to ensure you won't hear any notes would be to hold the bow as far up thre stick as you can and still play. To go 110%, surely use no rosin, or rosin of violncelle, and play over your fboard wwith enormous amoutns of bow velocity.
It will sound much like a bass flute being blown while never holding down any key fully.

 

[goodgig]

Prescottissimo said, "To go 110%, surely use no rosin, or rosin of violncelle, and play over your fboard wwith enormous amoutns of bow velocity.
It will sound much like a bass flute being blown while never holding down any key fully. "

Hi Prescottissimo, looks like you have quite a bass. Congrats! Not quite sure what you meant here. Is it your opinion that the technique/sound that you described is desirable for Bach?

 

[Bill Bentgen]

Would you do me the kind favor of directing me to the porchestra which you are describing? Sounds like a real Back to the PAst type place.

This was a community orchestra near Washington D.C., and it was a good natured rant with the conductor who is my friend. We were playing the Bach Christmas Cantata and he asked all of the strings to use a bow hold similar to that described above.

I also told him to make sure all of the violins had short necks like they had in the Baroque era.

I have often joked with a friend of mine who also has a 5-string bass that we should put extensions on our basses to get the low G. I will tell him about your F# extension.

 

[Justin K-ski]

Since I play with a German bow I like to completely loosen my bow hair and hold the bow at tension myself like a gamba player.

I've found this to be a helpful way to get quick baroque style articulations, like when I play the Bach chaconne.

 

[thedbassist]

Really? The chaconne? Like with a cello? Or solo? I don't think its possible to do it solo(unless you make some serious edits).

 

[PaulCannon]

No, Justin's totally good enough for the Chaconne. In fact, he's too good for it. The man goes to the Juilliard, so he MUST be good.

 

[Bill Bentgen]

Really? The chaconne? Like with a cello? Or solo? I don't think its possible to do it solo(unless you make some serious edits).

Rodion Azarkhin did it on the bass. He got almost all of the notes. It sounded like crap, but he got almost all of the notes.

 

[neilG]

Rodion Azarkhin did it on the bass. He got almost all of the notes. It sounded like crap, but he got almost all of the notes.

There was a guy I knew at Juilliard, lo these many years ago, who got up in front of a masterclass and hacked out the first movement of the E major Partita. He earned the nickname Terremoto, which means earthquake in Spanish. He too, got almost all the notes.

 

[Justin K-ski]

No, Justin's totally good enough for the Chaconne. In fact, he's too good for it. The man goes to the Juilliard, so he MUST be good.

I'm telling you, hold your bow hair at tension with your fingers, and you can play just like me!!

 

[mcnaire2004]

I told a conductor once that after he knocked the church temperature down to 60 degrees, bought me a set of hand-made gut strings, sent a horse carriage to my house to pick me and my bass up, threw all of the women out of the orchestra, knocked "A" down to about 430 hz, and wore a wig while he beat time with a rolled up piece of paper, then he could start telling me how to hold my bow.

WOW, that was freaking funny!!!!!!!!!!!!! LO freaking L

 

[JCable]

Wow ... first time post and all I can say is, I've been reading a lot of really strange things here! "Loosen the bow hairs and play like a gamba bow???" Anybody who thinks you can do baroque articulations that way is delusional. Play the gamba that way, not the bass! Playing the Bach Chaconne on the bass is nonsense anyway, but that's just my opinion, to each his own. The pitch for Bach was never 430, probably 415 or perhaps 421. Personally, I don't like not playing all the notes, though there are some places where you can simplify things. However, the thing about "simplifying" is this: it can't be just to make things easier playing-wise, it has to make sense musically. I've been playing early music for almost forty years and you never stop learning how to make things better! So, just persevere and have fun!