Double Bass Bowing in Relation to Pitch

[PIZZAcato]

Well I was just wondering if anyone knew the answer to my question... stick with me. Pizzicato makes the note sharp the harder you pluck. So I was wondering how much bowing affects the actual pitch (if your finger depresses the string, if nothing puts more pressure on it and it sounded). Like how sharp the note gets because its being bowed (as in pressure on the string). I'm not really sure how to ask this... mabey compare bows that are loose and ones that are tighter if that makes a difference in pitch. Or comparing softer dynamics to louder dynamics and relativaty(sp) to pitch. Feel free to try to make this into a coherent thread. lol. thx for listening

P.S. I've just gone through the whole technique forum and this was the only question i had in mind... gotta love these forums!!!

 

[anonymous0726]

It all effects the perceived pitch: speed, pressure and placement. The first thing that you have to get going is getting a clean, well supported sound (think vocalist or horn player) or you won't have any luck at all.

 

[jfv]

What I'm curious about is why you are asking this?

Ray, is right, you need to get the physical aspects
of your sound production down first.

Rabbath demonstrates the relation of pressure,
speed, and placement on the string in the generation
of sound. Try and get your hands on Art of the Bow
and STUDY it.

Where the exact right spot is on the fingerboard will
vary with all these factors, and then of course you
also have intonation relative to the key to worry about
as well

Truely its wondrous....

 

[Hector Wolff]

I completely disagree with the statment that when pizzing the note becomes sharper pulling harder.

No matter how hard you pull, the note is not sounded until you release. At that point the string is not stretched anymore, and assuming your left hand finger has not been pulled or knocked out of proper position, the only thing effected is amplitude or loudnessl.

The story is different with the bow. Here the pressure of the bow on the string does very slightly stretch the string, all the while the bow is being pulled. Of course the pressure you apply will effect the amount of sharpness.

I routinely, tune with an electronic, vibration sencing tuner, both pizz and arco, and every time I have the bass perfectly in tune pizz, and then check the tuning with the bow, the bass will be slightly sharp with the bow, unless I am playing very gently.

 

[Jeff Michael]

The vibrating string will inherently go sharp just by virtue of it vibrating. When it's out at the extreme point of its excursion it has to be a little longer than when it's at the middle, and since the tension provided by the tuner doesn't change it has to increase in pitch.

This is never a problem for me though! Alas, that's because my intonation sets the out-of-tune threshold way beyond what string excursion might cause.

 

[Anonymous75966]

So I was wondering how much bowing affects the actual pitch ... (as in pressure on the string).

Does Rabbath specifically talk about this effect in Art of the Bow? I've always been mildly curious about this. I figure that the pressure of the bow must always have some effect on intonation, but we train ourselves to compensate for it - that's part of the technique of the instrument. It'll probably make you crazy if you think about it too much.

I've noticed this happening to a whole section playing FFF open E, like the last page of the Moldau, or last page of Dvorak #9 ... as in, 'hey, where'd that beating come from?' As an improviser and contemporary specialist, I've also experimented with controlling the pitch bend on purpose, and it does take a lot of pressure - more than you'd generally use for repertoire or practice. If you find this happens regularly when you practice you may have to re-examine your technique.

 

[jsbarber]

I routinely, tune with an electronic, vibration sencing tuner, both pizz and arco, and every time I have the bass perfectly in tune pizz, and then check the tuning with the bow, the bass will be slightly sharp with the bow, unless I am playing very gently.

Hector - I play an electric upright and have also used an electronic tuner (Peterson Strobostomp) for tuning. I have generally tuned by plucking and then adjusting the tuners. Today I did this and then bowed the open strings and they all were flat. So I retuned using the tuner, but bowing instead of plucking, and they all needed to have the string tension increased. This is the opposite of your experience, it seems. Are you sure your strings are too sharp for bowing when you tune with pizacato? Just curious. And thank you for pointing this out. Retuning with the bow made a noticable difference.

Jim

 

[jfv]

Does Rabbath specifically talk about this effect in Art of the Bow? I've always been mildly curious about this. I figure that the pressure of the bow must always have some effect on intonation, but we train ourselves to compensate for it - that's part of the technique of the instrument. It'll probably make you crazy if you think about it too much.

I've noticed this happening to a whole section playing FFF open E, like the last page of the Moldau, or last page of Dvorak #9 ... as in, 'hey, where'd that beating come from?' As an improviser and contemporary specialist, I've also experimented with controlling the pitch bend on purpose, and it does take a lot of pressure - more than you'd generally use for repertoire or practice. If you find this happens regularly when you practice you may have to re-examine your technique.

I don't think its ever the exact focus of his talk, his
concern is the sound production and not so much
the intonation that comes along with that production.
Its just as you understand and practice what he is
showing you intonation issues come along with it.

 

[PIZZAcato]

What I'm curious about is why you are asking this?

However we study our instrument and further our knowledge is a valuable asset to us... So I figured "Why the heck not?"

I completely disagree with the statment that when pizzing the note becomes sharper pulling harder.

That's intresting because like jsbarber pizz makes my intonation sharper. What kind of technique are you using?(ie. How do you pulck/bow?)

What does Rabbath have to say about intonation... I wouldn't know cause I've never been able to watch "Art Of The Bow"

I've just thought of another thing... It's not so much placement since vibration is what gives us the ability hear... but mabey this thread should be related to how much pressure we apply on the bow and how much our left hand has to compensate for it?(Even though the compensation would probably be minescule)

Now, we will never have EXACT perfect pitch... but what's to say we cant try...

 

[anonymous0726]

With placement you are not only (maybe) stretching the more or less, but you are bringing out different overtones.

 

[jsbarber]

That's intresting because like jsbarber pizz makes my intonation sharper. What kind of technique are you using?(ie. How do you pulck/bow?)

Clarification - My comment was refering to the difference in tuning of the open strings when bowed and plucked. I was not refering to intonation while fingering with my left hand.


Jim

 

[JoeyNaeger]

I can't remember if Rabbath mentions it in the art of the bow dvd or not, but he made a point of demonstrating how too slow a bow with too much pressure makes the pitch go flat in a master class once.

 

[Hector Wolff]

Yes, I am sure because I go through this process every orchestra rehearsal. If I want to be able to pull an 440 A, I must tune up using the bow with the tuner. When I do this and then check the tuning with the same tuner playing pizz, I am always just a little flat.

But all this is really not important, once I am in tune, I can playing arco passages and pizz passages in the orchestra section and it all sounds fine. It could be that, since I am always intently listening, I am automatically compensating as I pizz, but I am not conciously aware of it.

The differences that you can see on the tuner, may not be noticable to the ear, especially if your own intonation (not related to tuning) is not perfect (and who's is?).

 

[Alex Scott]

Do you press down into the string as you bow? That makes a difference.

 

[Stan Haskins]

I've heard this phenomenon called "impact distortion" - I think the idea is that when you press into the string (or overpull it) with bow hair or fingers, you're increasing the tension on the string, making it go sharp. I know that, when I was trying reallyhard to get a sort of aggressive, meaty "ray brown"-type pizz sound, it made me play sharper, reducing the overall quality of intonation. If you pizz more sensitively (like classical players seem to do, or even jazzers like Holland, Haden, Johnson . . .) the effect seems to be more controlled.

When my piano tuner comes over with that high end pitch tuning thingy (what's it called? the one with the swirly red light? A stroboscope, or something like that) He shows me how much the pitch of any string changes while it's ringing. Some notes curl up, some flatten out. It's a much finer test than regular chromatic tuners, or anything my ears are trained to hear.

 

[Hector Wolff]

Do you press down into the string as you bow? That makes a difference.

I mentioned that when playing with little or no pressure there was no ptich change, so yes, I was refering to applying pressure while bowing. I was taught to apply pressure or "dig in" in many situations.

 

[Alex Scott]

I try to excite the string in it's normal axis of vibration.

Try this to see what you think:

Get a good pizz sound by pulling the string to the side.
Try to recreate that pizz sound with your bow, starting on the string and moving sideways, pulling the sound out of the bass.

Try to get the bow to move at a speed where it doesn't interfere with the string, but just keeps it going. This should vary inversely with how much weight you put into the string.

I think you may be experiencing a phenomenon where you squeeze your muscles, and your bow changes speed as the vibration stops. In my experience, this causes the pitch shift.

If you would rather hit it hard, get some bigger badder strings that are stiffer and knock it to Kingdom come. I still think the exercise is valuable though.

 

[fingerstyle]

I've been working getting the most out of open strings, using the weight of my arms, not muscle (.... rabbath) and ive been able to get my open strings to vibrate enough to raise up about a quarter tone or so. i don't push in, just accelerate whilst keepinng the string engaged.

 

[jmears]

I find the effect of bowing at various dynamics is much more noticeable when I have tuned my E string down to a D. I guess it was not designed to be used that way - the string is a little slack and hard to get much tone from, as we know. As I play louder on it, it gets quite a bit sharper, so I tend to tune it a little on the flat side.

So I'm sure there will be a similar, but less pronounced, effect when it is tuned to E.