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Double Bass bowing problem

T

tez123

Oct 6, 2011
66
0
KILLARNEY QUEENSLAND AUSTRALIA
#1
I am new to bowing and finding it a great challange . I have a czech bow $300, use pops .not too much . when I start the bow I sometimes hear the note sound nearly a semitone flat, then it comes up to pitch as the bow moves , or it can sound the octave above the note bowed then drop to pitch .
At times whenI pick up the bow and practice it seems sweet ,but as soon as I concentrate on getting a good sound and even bowing it gets worse than when I started. I have thomastic strings on a fully carved Artiste. 12 yrs old :crying::help:
 
#2
Howdy Tez,

Problems of this nature can be tricky to diagnose and treat over the internets- hopefully folks here can offer some assistance, but the best thing is to check with your teacher on this (we're big on teacher here!)...if you do not have a teacher, see if you can discuss the matter with someone with more arco experience- even if they are not a bassist.

That said- The pitch is determined by where you place your hand on the fingerboard, and to some extent the amount of weight you put into the bow. Does this phenomenon manifest itself in the bowing of open strings as well as stopped? That is the first thing to investigate.

Next- You could be experiencing what is sometimes called "falsing"- where the bowed string sounds a harmonic overtone rather than the fundamental pitch. This will sound "screachy", and could easy be confused with pitch issues.

Playing arco can be a challenge- so don't let little problems get you down! Keep at it, and you'll find it gets much easier as time progresses!

For clarity- which Thomastik strings are you using? And are they twelve years old, or is the bass?

I sincerely hope that some of this helps you, and you are sure to get more advice shortly.

Best of luck!

Joe
 
#4
"Open strings are ok."- By this you mean that the problem doesn't present itself on open strings, only when you bow stopped strings?

If this is the case, there are a few things that come to mind, but again, since I can't see and hear you in person there is a pretty decent chance that I could be misinterpreting things...

So- Idea 1 is that you may not be stopping the string with enough pressure. You don't need a lot, so don't hurt yourself, but you do need enough to get the note to ring clear and true.

Idea 2- Since you are new to arco playing, you may be moving your left hand about while you draw the bow without realizing that you are doing it- a case of too many things to keep track of!

Beyond this, I got nothin! :D

Like I said earlier, if the open strings stay pitch stable, and the issue pops up on stopped strings, that alone should tell you something.

Try playing in front of a full length mirror! That's what my teacher recommends to me. This will hopefully shed some light on the subject!

I hope some of this helps, or at least gives you some ideas. Please post more info- like if there are any other things that come to mind...hopefully someone here will be able to help you get to the bottom of this!

In the mean time, keep working at it!

Joe
 
#5
just a thought since you're far from any teachers, might want to look into a couple of Skype lessons to help you w/the bowing. It really helps to have someone knowledgeable look and listen to what you're doing and help correct any issues. Keep at it, though, you'll get it :cool:
 
#6
Seems to me the problem is that you are initiating the pressing down of the string to the fingerboard at the same time you are beginning to bow the string. You should have the string pressed down before you bow it. Also, continue to have it pressed down for the duration of the note.
 
#7
When you start learning 'arco' you will feel ike you ot sent back to first grade! You need to et a practice regime which focuses on bowing. Try some of the followin ideas and incorporate them into your daily routine.

1. Tenutos. Start with the bow as close to a right angle to the open D string as you can with the frog (heel) about 4 or 5 inches from the point of contact. Use your arm from the shoulder to start moving the bow just fast enough to get the string vibrating and then slightly release the preasure and contiue the speed until you're about two or three inces from the tip.
Remember to count to four (qt = 60) through a single bow stroke and make sure you are at about 1/4 on count 1, 1/2 on count 2 and 3/4 on count 3 and at the tip on count 4. THis keeps you aware of how much bow you need for each quarter note.

2. Martelato. This is something like the first quarter of the Tenuto stroke above but along with the shoulder movement you will need to use mre elbow and wrist movement.
try to move the bow slightly faster on this stroke but don't let the it 'skate' on the string.

3. Spicatto. This is a really short note and the stroke that will help you get over your under-pitch problem described in your post. Firstly the open strings are easy becuase they are fixed. The bow should start on the string and then as soon as the note begins the presure is released and the bow comes to a halt (not too abrubpt). The wrist is the main activist in this stroke. Now on stopped notes you need to get that finer pressed really well onto the fingerboard before you begin. That way it will sound like an open string ideally.

Practice these strokes on single notes and then on scales always startin at a slow tempo and gradually clicking up the metronome until you are just less than double ther speed you started.

Take the bow seriously (you have serious gear) and it will take you seriously!

I'll leave it up to others to cover other strokes and detailed technique, so...

good lock!
FC
 
#9
The octave-high pitch is falsing, definitely. That's caused by one of two things, either you're not stopping the string effectively enough with the left hand, or you're not starting the bow stroke quite right.

The under-pitch thing happens when you aren't stopping the string effectively with the left hand and using way, way, way too much weight on the bow, along with not starting the stroke quite right.

So, the common things: you need to get your left hand right, which means letting the weight of your left arm hang from your shoulder and the contact point on the bass; just holding your arm in the right shape, relaxing the shoulder. And you need to do that before the bow moves at all, ideally before it even contacts the string.

Then you need your right arm relaxed too, which you can ONLY do with the bow in contact with the string; if not, you obviously have to hold up the weight of the bow. Now, for a normal stroke, just the weight of the bow should be enough. Contact should be about 2/3 of the way from the bridge to the fingerboard, and must stay there. Then the stroke comes from changing the shape of your arm, the bow comes along for the ride.

You will find you can feel the nature of the contact through your fingers, if your bow hold is relaxed enough. Feel for the contact, and play around so you learn the feel of which kinds of contact make which sound. Vary position on the string, bow speed, bow weight that you apply, and roll angle of the bow, until you can make a clean start and stop to a note anywhere on the bow from heel to tip at any volume (although, to be fair, very loud and at the tip doesn't really happen). Yes, that's a lot of variables, and it takes a long time to get through all the possibilities. But you will, don't despair.
 
#10
Here's some info from my web site ( Invalid Link Removed )

As far as pitch problems, make sure your left had is firmly pressing the string down. Think of your finger sinking into the fingerboard wood. Also, a slow bow over the fingerboard can also cause the pitch to go slight flat. Make sure your bow is in the middle between the fingerboard and bridge and you have a good amount of arm weight into the bow and string. Don't worry, the bow won't break.

I also suggest you get a teacher!!! These can be easy fixes if we see what's going on.

Tone Production


First start with a RELAXED bow hand and arm that allows transfer of WEIGHT to the bow and string. You must let gravity do its job by letting it pull your arm into the string. The bow should ‘bite’ the string – not skate or slide across it. There should be a feeling of the bow ‘digging in’ to string – yet retaining a relaxed sense in the arm.



Tone Building Exercises
To help feel this bite or digging in sensation try this exercise:
1. Place bow on string, let arm weight fall into string, move string with bow.
2. Do not play or move bow across string.
3. Just try to move the string about 1/8 inch back and forth.



Standing Bass Weight
Another concept of tone production when standing is to keep bass almost completely vertical the bow and lean the bass into the bow. This is sort of a reverse concept of bow weight.



Hanging Weight
Teacher: Hold the bow with your right hand at the tip end of the bow. Have the student hang their right hand from the bow using their fingers at approximately the same place where one would normally hold the bow. This helps the student to feel the ‘hanging weight’ of the arm. This works well for French bow. For German bow, tone is generally much easier to produce.



The student should first have a concept of WEIGHT going in to the string. This can be accomplished without the double bass.



Bow Placement
Also, play in the harmonics – that’s where the bow goes and why it must be moved closer to the bridge. When playing an open E – you can play over the fingerboard because of the G# harmonic there and the thickness of the string. The bow will ride in those nodes and give the best sound. When playing higher on the fingerboard, a new string length is created with the harmonic series moved close to the bridge. Therefore, bow placement needs to be adjusted.
 
#11
tez123 said:
thanks for your help i will get my head down
Click to expand...

I believe this is a colloquialism meant to convey that you will "get to work"- yes? :)

It reminds me of more general bowing advice- POSTURE!!!

Make sure that while you are "getting your head down" that you keep your head UP! lol! :D
Keep your head up, neck and back straight, shoulders back and most important- do your level best to not hold any tension in your body. This may sound like a tall order, especially since you have so many things to think about- work hard to be mindful while you practice.

Also, make sure that you are not "gripping" the bow too hard! This is another difficult thing to express in writing- but really easy to demonstrate in person.

Wow, there is a TON of great advice is this thread!!! I hope it all serves you well!

Oh- and remember that this whole journey will take time- so enjoy the ride! :cool:

Joe
 
#14
Hi after another 20 or so hrs of diligent bowing practice ,I notice there is a very pleasent sound comming from the bow best discribed as a quiet HZZZZZ as the bow moves over the strings it is as if the the bow hair is vibrating. when it started to happen the tone produced by the bass was much richer and warmer . at first it was only on the A and D string but now I can make it happen on all the strings I dont get any squeaks or flat sounding harmonics when I bow and this sound is present . it is only really noticable comming from the bow not the bass :)
 

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