Double Bass bowing speed versus vibrato speed

[Les Fret]

Thinking about these two things lately:

1) When doing long bows my bow tends to go faster when applying more vibrato.
For example: when playing a low g (on E string) in tempo 60. I can play this sustaining for 12 beats or so in one bow. But when applying vibrato I can only hold it for 8 beats.
2) When playing high notes my bow goes faster than playing low notes.
When applying vibrato to high notes my goes goes even faster.
So for example a high G on the G string (one octave above middle G) I can only hold for 6 beats (tempo 60) or so when doing vibrato.
Of course bowing closer to bridge when going higher.

What do you think of this? any tips or advise?

 

[Andrew McGregor]

Practice until you can control the bow speed separately from the vibrato speed, that's something you have to be able to do. Vibrato should not change your bow speed.

As for #2, well, that's true, your bow does need to go faster on high notes than low notes, and will naturally do that. However, you do need to be able to change your bow speed consciously as well, so you can play very long notes while using very little bow, or to 'float' the bow over a very short note to get back to the other end. Again, practice this.

 

[David Potts]

Also try switching on and off the vibrato at will after starting the bow stroke, without disturbing the bow speed.

Another to try is gradually increasing vibrato while doing crescendo (accelerating bow speed) and decreasing vibrato during diminuendo. First gain bow control over crescendo and diminuendo without vibrato. There are six simple exercises that will help -
(1) Down bow followed by up bow, each loud to soft ( ie Decrescendo)
(2) Down up,each soft to loud (Crescendo)
(3) Down, loud to soft, then up, soft to loud
(4) Down, soft to loud, then up, loud to soft
(5) Each bow, soft to loud to soft (in one bow)
(6) Each bow, loud to soft to loud
Changing bow speed, bow weight and contact point all together will give the biggest range of dynamics (from a whisper to a roar) but try not to crush the sound.

 

[Les Fret]

Thanks David, I will practice that.

Practice until you can control the bow speed separately from the vibrato speed, that's something you have to be able to do. Vibrato should not change your bow speed.

Yes I know you are right. I am going to work on that too.
It feels natural to move faster with the bow as your left hand is making faster vibrato movements.

 

[JoeyNaeger]

I find that vibrato reduces the amount of resistance in the string. I base the amount of weight and speed I use completely on how the string's resistance feels, so for me the change in bow speed is a natural response to the string. There are two options, you can either move the bow slightly closer to the bridge to compensate for the drop in resistance or move the bow faster. At least one variable has to be modified to keep the sound the same.

 

[Andrew McGregor]

Absolutely it feels natural to go faster when you start vibrato. And a lot of the time, that's OK, and it is just fine to go with it. But sometimes you need a lot of vibrato and have to use very little bow for one reason or another, and so you need to be able to control the two separately.

There's four variables with the bow: speed, weight, roll (as in, the angle made between the center of the hair and the center of the stick, relative to the string) and position relative to the bridge. You can adjust for vibrato several ways... more speed, different combination of weight and roll, move closer to the bridge, or some combination of all three. Your vibrato will sound different depending on how you do that, and you can use that change in sound to musical effect.

 

[David Potts]

Joey, it's funny. I find that using vibrato on lower string notes helps me increase the string resistance to the bow and slow down its movement. To say it another way I can produce a rich earthy tone by using a slower, heavier bow with less risk of crushing the sound. I don't like a lot of vibrato or a fast or wide vibrato on the E string, usually getting prodded into it by a conductor looking for LH energy. The string is vibrating so slowly (E = 41.7 times per second) and takes longer to reach full tone so adding vibrato to the mix can potentially add confusion, the opposite to the desired effect, especially when trying to unify pitch of such low notes in a section.

I was taught that the bow speed should increase as you go across from thicker to thinner strings because the rising speed of vibrations needed that extra support. Also that the default bow contact point on the G string should be closer to the bridge (never sul tasto) than on the E string. Another thing was that faster notes on the E string will move the bow contact point closer to the end of the fingerboard as the bow length also decreases.

I see that vibrato and glissando are the only two things the LH can do to enhance the beauty of the music. If vibrato is overdone in speed, shape or width it can too quickly become a visual and aural distraction for both the player and the listener. The bow and its skilled use are our primary means of expression. Vibrato is to me like the cream on top of the icing on a lovely cake of sound. Oh, yum!!

DP

 

[JoeyNaeger]

That's interesting about the E string, but you're right, excessive vibrato in the low range is usually a bad idea in section playing. The contact absolutely changes as you change strings. I used to make this a conscious effort, but now it happens very intuitively. Again, my entire approach to using the bow is being sensitive to the resistance in the string. If you match the resistance as you move from string to string, the contact point will naturally move closer to bridge.

Vibrato is a really interesting subject and the aesthetic for it has really changed quite a bit. I wish I was more knowledgeable about the different trends in classical virtuosity in history. It seems like we're in a very classical era in the sense that all the modern virtuosos are absolutely clean and pristine. Vibrato and phrasing is always done very tastefully. I used to link vibrato with expression in my head, but I've seen enough performances to know that music can be beautiful without it.

Andrew- I have to admit that I'm rarely that aware of the roll of the bow and usually just use full hair for everything. I think I'm going to play around with that in my practice. I always find playing quietly to be difficult as I feel like I have to pull weight from the bow, but maybe through rolling I can eliminate that problem. Thanks!

 

[Les Fret]

Vibrato is a really interesting subject and the aesthetic for it has really changed quite a bit. I wish I was more knowledgeable about the different trends in classical virtuosity in history.

A bit off topic but also very interesting. Listen to how much slides ins are used in this performance of Koussevitzky (I think it is played by the composer himself). He uses many slide ins and also many slurs with one finger. It is not something you will hear a lot by today's players. But still I like this performance and way of playing. Although it may sound dated I actually prefer it over the more clean performances of today.