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Double Bass Breaking in a New Bass
- Thread starter statsc
- Start date
Yes. Convincing someone with facts before an argument gets to the yelling point can take a lot of effort - effort we aren't always patient enough to make. On the other hand, giving up closely-held belief in the face of evidence to the contrary is obviously pretty difficult for a lot of people. Courtesy, readiness to admit error, and courage to walk away when you can't convince with facts - these are necessary qualities IMO for arguing well.
Hey you guys; OP here; gimme back my thread! We’re talking basses here, not saxophones!
If the person referred to was me, I'll add an experiment I did yesterday. Being aware that I could be mistaken in the face of such confident opposition to my beliefs, I played one of my tenors (the 1937 Selmer Balanced Action) yesterday.
Playing in the lower octave notes possible with the left hand, I put my right hand on the key posts (the parts connecting the key rods to the body of the sax. There were very clearly evident vibrations of these posts and rods easily discernable to touch. So... the sax does vibrate. It is difficult to argue against great self confidence, but I found my "arguement" for the vibration of the brass on a sax again, empirically physically proven thusly. Continuing with trying to link this to a resulting tonal change, I would suggest that if anyone would take a paperclip and bend it, they would find that the second bend would be easier, with each repeated bend easier and easier. So I believe my thoughts on aging of vibrating instruments, saxes and basses to be accurate in the face of the utter confidence of those disagreeing with these thoughts. Bring it on?
Playing in the lower octave notes possible with the left hand, I put my right hand on the key posts (the parts connecting the key rods to the body of the sax. There were very clearly evident vibrations of these posts and rods easily discernable to touch. So... the sax does vibrate. It is difficult to argue against great self confidence, but I found my "arguement" for the vibration of the brass on a sax again, empirically physically proven thusly. Continuing with trying to link this to a resulting tonal change, I would suggest that if anyone would take a paperclip and bend it, they would find that the second bend would be easier, with each repeated bend easier and easier. So I believe my thoughts on aging of vibrating instruments, saxes and basses to be accurate in the face of the utter confidence of those disagreeing with these thoughts. Bring it on?
OK,my last post on this topic.
No one, especially not me, says that a saxophone doesn’t vibrate. My 1935 ish Conn transitional bari’s palm keys buzz like hell. That vibration does not contribute anything audible. That’s established science. It’s not a bell, OK? Try to ring it if you want.
A wind instrument does not produce sound in that way.
That’s why Bird sounded about the same on his plastic alto as he did on his brass King, and why my bass trombone playing friend sounds the same on a brass or a carbon fiber instrument. It doesn’t matter!
Probably wise, but... on this list I have found it easy to avoid, scan past subjects of no interest to me. In any case, I suspect the opinions of all, both readers and writers are set in stone at this point on this subject.
Not so.
I - and others - have repeatedly indicated our openness to empirical data, or explanations based on science, as opposed to conjecture and impressions. I found that one article intriguing, until I realized it was posted on a site of someone who sells vibrating devices, and then I found another article seemingly to the contrary.
I am VERY willing to be proven wrong. But when I am faced with a lack of data, I don't find someone's feelings of one thing or another terribly persuasive.
OK, no more saxophone. So... this comes straight from Steinway Pianos. "One of the most critical areas with a new piano is its wood, which tends to still be “stabilizing” during the piano’s first few (to several) years." It's not a bass but it's still one seriously large vibrating wooden instrument and I should expect the folks at Steinway know something about quality tone woods.
How much of a piano's sound is "in" the wood (as opposed to its soundboard, which is metal)?
It's a mixed bag. The soundboard is actually made of wood; the harp (where the strings are hung) is metal. The soundboard is extremely important for the sound. Not so sure about the case itself, at least in terms of what kind of wood it is.
In a piano, the soundboard is analogous to the top and bottom plates of a violin family instrument. It's made of wood and is universally considered critical to the sound of the piano. The pin block (the tuning pins are driven into this) is made of laminated wood. I don't think anyone claims it's an element in sound production, but its aging, shrinkage, and swelling certainly can affect tuning stability. Most of the mechanism is also made of wood; again its aging won't have an effect on tone but it sure can have an effect on the action of the piano. The frame of the piano is heavy cast iron, as required to withstand the tremendous force developed by a piano's worth of strings at tension. I would think the design of the frame would also be important to tone as that's where the strings are anchored at the bridge end and where the pin block's attached.
Basically, once you've got the frame, strings to tension, and soundboard, you've got the tone producing equipment of a piano. All that stuff, of course, is mounted in a wood cabinet; I don't know what claims are made for the tonal effect of the rest of the piano housing. Common sense would tell us that the case would be low on the list with strings, soundboard, and frame all being much more important.
Basically, once you've got the frame, strings to tension, and soundboard, you've got the tone producing equipment of a piano. All that stuff, of course, is mounted in a wood cabinet; I don't know what claims are made for the tonal effect of the rest of the piano housing. Common sense would tell us that the case would be low on the list with strings, soundboard, and frame all being much more important.
And, do they build pianos using aged wood? I'd imagine it isn't "green"...
As a general rule, different from fiddles, pianos aren't generally thought to improve w/ great age. You don't have concert pianists demanding to play on 100 yr old Steinways...
We bought an upright Boston which had been gently used in a concert hall practice room. Got a nice price on it. If it improved w/ age, wouldn't the concert hall ship them off to be broken in somewhere else, instead of continually cycling in new ones.
(Sorry statsc!)
As a general rule, different from fiddles, pianos aren't generally thought to improve w/ great age. You don't have concert pianists demanding to play on 100 yr old Steinways...
We bought an upright Boston which had been gently used in a concert hall practice room. Got a nice price on it. If it improved w/ age, wouldn't the concert hall ship them off to be broken in somewhere else, instead of continually cycling in new ones.
(Sorry statsc!)
Okay, I'm not a piano player so bear that in mind... Pianos have a lot of mechanical parts that wear over time with use. They need much more maintenance than a bass that's played regularly. I'm gonna guess that a 100 year old piano would need most, if not all, of it's original moving parts replaced to be in tip-top shape. I don't think the economics of it make sense, not to mention that, unlike the DB world, piano technology has likely improved a lot in the last century.
Piano soundboards certainly would change with age (I'm positive the wood is well seasoned before it's made into the soundboard, but just for a couple years, not for decades) and that could affect tone. Again, there's no real way to test this due to the length of time required for the study and the fact that attempts to accelerate the aging process are likely to introduce their own effects.
I will say that the time I tried out a 110 year old Hamburg Steinway I really, really wanted to take it home with me - despite the fact that I had no place for it and I don't even play piano more than an hour or two total in a year. What a beautiful instrument! Was it the age, or just the way it was made? I have no way of answering that.
I will say that the time I tried out a 110 year old Hamburg Steinway I really, really wanted to take it home with me - despite the fact that I had no place for it and I don't even play piano more than an hour or two total in a year. What a beautiful instrument! Was it the age, or just the way it was made? I have no way of answering that.
