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Double Bass Breaking in a New Bass

@Ed S: the bass plays only some frequencies. ...

Thanks for the explanation, jj. I fear my tiny brain still has difficulties "doing the math." What you say make sense, about strings vibrating. But the article sees to discuss air vibrating within the body of the instrument. Is that the same thing? Also, the quality of the graphs is not great in the version I see, but I do not see the increases in the pattern you describe. I see that the article uses the word "peaks", but the graphs look as though they show increases at pretty much most frequencies - with greater increases at higher freq. Nor does the article explain the mechanics behind the changes - whether it be changes in the wood fibers or what.

Discussed this article w/ my wife (a part-time luthier), who had previously read it. She acknowledged that wood changes over time, but questioned the significance of the measured differences.

This study from the same site seems to support the "no perceptible change" position.

One point my wife brought up was that as precisely as you try to fit the bridge feet and soundpost, she believes they set more closely when the instrument is strung and played. This might explain some of the improvement players perceive in the initial weeks/months of playing a newly constructed/setup instrument.

Interesting topic. I'll be speaking w/ some more experienced luthiers in upcoming months, and am interested in obtaining their views.
 
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Classic experiential knowledge vs speculative knowledge argument. Some things can’t be taught - they gotta be caught.


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I put my 5 y/o La Scala next to my Magnepan loudspeakers a couple weeks ago when this thread began (I listen about 12 hours a day) and I can tell a difference… Fair warning - my experience is entirely in my mind, though, so I don’t attest to the physics of your own personal perspectives…
 
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I've built approximately 50 acoustic guitars over the years and every owner, without exception, have all stated that the instruments "opened up" after a year of hard playing. They have also stated, also without exception, that the instruments also finally settled in to their final tones between 4 to 5 years. These instruments now live in all climate zones so weather and geography do not seem to affect this phenomenon. The Upton Brescian that I bought new about a year ago was quite stiff to play, like all new basses seem to be. After a year of daily playing (mostly arco) it is much easier on the fingers and the tone has definitely opened up. High notes are noticeably brighter, low notes are clearer, much more defined. The "woodiness" of the bass tone is also much more noticeable. I recently made a string change so this is not dure to strings breaking in or a technique thing. The change in tone is very real, and is definitely for the good. Who cares why.
 
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@Ed S : you're right. I described only the first half - what the strings are doing. Strings are a motor, creating an impulse in a row of frequencies, which are different for every pitch.
Guettler's crowd were measuring the body without strings: the ability of the body to amplify those frequencies. You can see that it starts somewhere, ends somewhere, and during the frequency 'field of operation' there are peaks. Let's call them formants. Those peaks tend to get bigger after time.
Thinking about this, there are some assumptions we can make:
- the 'character' of the bass, which lies within the formants, tends to get more 'characteristic'
- the changes would be audible on some pitches more than on the others
- as the formants changes mostly on higher frequencies, it will be not much hearable with pizz. It will be hearable with bow. When bowing, you hear the same frequencies as when plucking (the low oomph), but you also hear the mids and highs much more pronounced; the mids and highs are what is most developing over time.

All this concerns the tone quality only. The fact that the bass gets easier to play over time is not much explained by this 'math'.
 
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I believe bowing is good for basses, but it's essentially a religious belief, based only on what sages have told me over the years. It could be that bowing long tones is good for the bassist, and does not have a substantial effect on the wood. I have, however, repeatedly observed that new basses are "tight" or "dry" sounding at first, and then get "rounder" or "deeper", and quite a bit louder, rapidly over the course of a few years of playing. Whether DB's necessarily get better with age after that seems to me to be a bit in the eye of the beholder. I have not observed this same change in electric bass guitars, I sort of think BG's age only for the worse.
 
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I've played saxophone for over sixty years, and during that time I have had, and used professionally, many saxes. Empirical evidence observed makes me believe it to be true. I have sensed the same "loosening up" of the instruments that I have in basses. If you haven't observed the loosening up of basses, through age and use, I can understand your disbelief in my comments.

Civilly,

Steven
 
Can a bass player's familiarity with a particular instrument over time be another critical relevant factor?

The Op's title is about breaking in a "new" bass. Sure, any instrument is going to "break in" over many years of play. YMMV
 
I've played saxophone for over sixty years, and during that time I have had, and used professionally, many saxes. Empirical evidence observed makes me believe it to be true. I have sensed the same "loosening up" of the instruments that I have in basses. If you haven't observed the loosening up of basses, through age and use, I can understand your disbelief in my comments.

Civilly,

Steven

I've played saxophone since the early 1960s, still do, and have noticed no "loosening up" of the horns. That makes sense because the body material plays no part in producing a saxophone's sound. Not to mention that the molecular structure of brass does not change over time. Right now I have two baris, and one each tenor, soprano, and alto. All of my horns except for a 2015 Yani bari are "vintage".
 
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Friends, in regard to saxophones breaking in: there is no answer to this one. Mu. Greater minds than our own have argued this to death and to no avail. You say tomato I say tomato … both perspectives can be valid because Reality is subjective and not empirical. ‘Let’s call it off!’
 
Friends, in regard to saxophones breaking in: there is no answer to this one. Mu. Greater minds than our own have argued this to death and to no avail. You say tomato I say tomato … both perspectives can be valid because Reality is subjective and not empirical. ‘Let’s call it off!’

Oh, sorry. In this case, and many others, Reality is empirical. Perhaps in a parallel world the laws of physics are different, and perhaps sone people are able to shift between worlds and so can choose a preferred version. For us who remain bound to this single world, there is such an animal as established fact.

In the case of double basses and bowed strings in general, we can say that whether they break in or not can be a subjective judgement. Although the only legitimate studies I know of tend to suggest that they do not break in, credible theories exist which explain how the wood might change over time. And for the bass, its wood, the table, moves to produce sound.

A saxophone is different. The sound is produced by an oscillating column of air, the tube is rigid, the tube contributes nothing audible. This is established science. Many people believe that the metal vibrates in a way that produces sound, and that even finishes can make a difference, but they are simply wrong. The manufacturers help perpetuate this myth, because they are happy to sell you a saxophone (at extra cost) with an annealed bell, for richer lower partials, or a solid silver saxophone which they say will produce a bright, silvery ring. Or maybe you prefer gold plate for a warm, burnished, sound?
 
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Oh, sorry. In this case, and many others, Reality is empirical. Perhaps in a parallel world the laws of physics are different, and perhaps sone people are able to shift between worlds and so can choose a preferred version. For us who remain bound to this single world, there is such an animal as established fact.

In the case of double basses and bowed strings in general, we can say that whether they break in or not can be a subjective judgement. Although the only legitimate studies I know of tend to suggest that they do not break in, credible theories exist which explain how the wood might change over time. And for the bass, its wood, the table, moves to produce sound.

A saxophone is different. The sound is produced by an oscillating column of air, the tube is rigid, the tube contributes nothing audible. This is established science. Many people believe that the metal vibrates in a way that produces sound, and that even finishes can make a difference, but they are simply wrong. The manufacturers help perpetuate this myth, because they are happy to sell you a saxophone (at extra cost) with an annealed bell, for richer lower partials, or a solid silver saxophone which they say will produce a bright, silvery ring. Or maybe you prefer gold plate for a warm, burnished, sound?

Have you ever played a horn before and after you strip the lacquer off the body tube? Have you ever felt the brass vibrate as you play? Why does a plastic saxophone sound different than a brass one? Why does an over buffed re-lacquered horn often suffer from from intonation issues? Why do identical mouthpieces made out of different materials respond differently? This notion that its all about the air column looks good on the internet, but it's not the whole truth at all, imho. I've got 25 years of experience with hundreds of horns as a player, repair tech, and dealer that directly disagrees with you - but that's my truth. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. Have fun with your own experiments - this kind of silly argument is why I don't frequent the saxophone forums anymore. I come here for the bass talk.
 
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You're right about one thing, it's a silly argument.

Absolutely none of those things actually happen. Identical mouthpieces made of different materials DON'T respond differently. The notion that it is all about the air column looks good on the internet and in legitimate, peer-reviewed, studies.

So stick with your voodoo, for whatever reason, I don't care.
 
I'm sorry if I offended you by disagreeing with you, but your 'my way or the highway' stance is all wrong... I assure you, I am trying to be as tactful as possible, but I think it's high time I just get off the internet and screens for a while - nothing good can come of continuing this discussion with it's current timber and it is self evident that I am wasting time in this cave. It's been a good run, talkbass - Thanks for your help, guidance, and support, et all.
 
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Well, I'm a saxophonist, a double-bass player, and a mechanical engineer.

I have heard many arguments that the saxophone's body is somehow vibrationally involved in tone production - materials, finishes, cryogenic treatment, add-on weights, etc., etc., etc., etc. Not one person making these claims has ever, in my experience, presented valid data in which the very basic standard of double blind testing has been followed - only anecdotal reports. Furthermore, of the few who actually bother to posit a mechanism for these supposed effects, I have not seen any such purported mechanism that doesn't violate what is well known about materials science, acoustics of woodwind instruments, or the behavior of materials in vibrations. (By the way, the materials science of metals and the behavior of mechanical items in vibration are two of the most comprehensively studied subjects in all of engineering - bascially all of the Industrial Revolution depends on these.) Rather, every experiment I've ever read about, that was conducted in a valid way, has indicated that the vibrations of the walls of the saxophone have an undetectable effect on its tone or response.

So I'm going to retain my opinion, that the preponderance of evidence is that the material of the walls of the saxophone is irrelevant to its performance - thus, all arguments about "vibration aging", cryogenic treatment, material's effect on sound, plating or lacquer's effect on sound, adding weights to the outside, etc., etc., etc., have no physical validity and any effects are psychological.

The double bass, as guitars, violins, and many other stringed instruments, DOES get its sound directly from the vibration of the body, which is set into vibration by the strings, and then sets into vibration the air volume within the body. Furthermore, the resulting sound is then transmitted to the listener by a combination of transmitted pressure from sound hole(s), and the external surfaces of the instrument exciting sound vibrations external to the instrument. In the case of such instruments, there is absolutely no argument that the vibration of the wooden box makes a very significant contribution of the sound; and furthermore there is extensive knowledge, backed by test data, on the effects of altering the response of the wooden box (make the plates thinner, make them thicker, change bracing patterns, etc.)

The operating principle of a stringed instrument as guitar, violin family, mandolin, etc., is DIFFERENT than the operating principle of a woodwind instrument.

So now we come to the question - does the tonal behavior of a double-bass change over time, without reference to the player, and due to changes in the wood? As opposed to, for example, bridge feet gradually sinking into the top plate and having an increased contact area (or many other things we could theorize)

Secondary question would be, what kind of changes and what causes them? Is it ongoing repeated vibration, is it the natural aging process of the wood, some other things? How important is each of these factors?

As I noted above, I am at present agnostic on whether there are actual changes in the wood that affect tone, and if that's demonstrated, I'm agnostic as to the effects of playing vibrations. I simply haven't seen enough data to form an opinion. The one thing that raises questions in my investigator's mind is that the changes are always reported as positive. It seems to me that if there are actual tonal effects due to these changes, there would occasionally be reported negative changes.

I will say that if these mechanisms DO exist, and playing vibrations and wood aging do make differences in tone (and I am open to this being the case) - such mechanisms will be secular, resulting from actual physical causes, and not requiring supernatural intervention.
 
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An unequivocal vote for breaking in new strings as part of the equation. Obviously changing out all your bass strings is not commonplace. But I did it a month or so ago, and noted a very clear progression from raucous to awesome. Took about two weeks. I mostly play arco, but almost could not stand to on the upper strings because it sounded so awful. Now I love them.
 
So I note that the guy who took offense at being told that his cherished beliefs about the mystical aging of saxophones as they become imbued with every chorus ever played through them, were simply not true - has made a grand exit.

Sigh.

I did buy a horn once that was "imbued" but it was 40 years of cigarette smoke and beer fumes... Can't say it made it sound better... Except maybe for the gagging sounds when I tried it out, before I put it out in the sun to air out for a couple weeks.....