Breaking in new speakers

[4Mal]

Wow this thread go funny since I last checked in.

Far as breaking in like a car - most retail cars ship the motor's machined to tolerances that approx a break in. The mfgr's know that nobody actually reads the owner's manual after the first car.

with a Ferrari for instance, you don't worry if it's leaking oil, you worry if it is not - that means there is none left ...

Breaking in a newly rebuilt motor is a different story. Assuming to was a performance build there is a regimen to adhere to.

So I had to pick middle ground. I decided on firing up the cd player and putting it on repeat, low to moderate volume. I though it would be a good idea to break it in using patterns the cab would become familiar with so I picked Los Lobos. I figured that Conrad pretty much does big fat 1/4 notes and that's pretty muich me on a good day so there we went. Sure enough Friday night's bar date ? All those 1/4 notes were big and strong so it must have worked!

I'm working on my overplaying at the moment so I'm going to run some Rush through the cab next week ... break it in on the 16th and 32nd notes!

Only kidding. Except about the Los Lobos part - I love those guys!

Seriously - the new 12's from Avatar seem to be a real upgrade from the old neo drivers. The slow end is right there with the old Delta's, darker in a good way than the Deltalite II's ever were. The hole on top isn't near as big as with the Delta LF's. The upper mid's are not as pronounced as they were with the older neo's. Is this 'cause there is more low end on tap and hence relatively less prominence or the driver not producing as much ? Hard to say the aural effect is the same. I think I'm going to try beefing up the attenuator and dropping the hi pass filter down a notch. See how that works.

(This cab has had Delta LF's, Delta Lite II's and now the extended xMax Delta Lite II's. The original speaks were the DeltaLite II's. This cab has the original hi pass filter from Avatar rather than the updated 12 db / octace that they now ship. This is also the cab with the Galaxy mid installed rather than the Foster horn.)

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Seriously - the new 12's from Avatar seem to be a real upgrade from the old neo drivers. The slow end is right there with the old Delta's, darker in a good way than the Deltalite II's ever were. The hole on top isn't near as big as with the Delta LF's. The upper mid's are not as pronounced as they were with the older neo's. Is this 'cause there is more low end on tap and hence relatively less prominence or the driver not producing as much ?

Longer xmax is achieved by using a longer voice coil. That would give a bit better bass response, as the coil would be able to move further before the onset of displacement limited power. The added mass of the longer coil would lower fs, resulting in reduced midrange, while the additional wire on the longer coil would increase Le, also resulting in less midrange. Depending on your personal taste that could be a plus or minus. Xmech would also be reduced, making coil damage from overexcursion a greater possibility. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

 

[jokerjkny]

(...)
The mfgr's know that nobody actually reads the owner's manual after the first car.
(...)

bah!

and people wonder they take so many trips to the service center, when they can easily read the manual to replace those pesky headlights! lol!

 

[keyboardguy]

Got a reply from Dave at Avatar regarding breaking in speakers:

"I"ve not heard that...I'd say to play them normally from the
beginning"


Interesting...... perhaps an 'old-wives tale' in the making?

Mike

 

[Passinwind]

Got a reply from Dave at Avatar regarding breaking in speakers:

"I"ve not heard that...I'd say to play them normally from the
beginning"


Interesting...... perhaps an 'old-wives tale' in the making?

Or not: http://www.eminence.com/faq23.asp

 

[Vic]

Got a reply from Dave at Avatar regarding breaking in speakers:

"I"ve not heard that...I'd say to play them normally from the beginning"

Or not: http://www.eminence.com/faq23.asp

Actually, if you read the last line of the FAQ, it says:

"The most highly recommended and safest way is several hours of higher volume playing."

In other words, like Dave says, "play them normally from the beginning".

Seriously, I've tested this theory on a brand new set of EA NL-210's, a brand new out of the box set of Yamaha BBT110S's, and a brand new set of Avatar speakers. At least to my ears, I hear very little or no diff at all, and pretty much everything I read seems to agree it's not a safety issue, and it's at best a subtle audio issue, so IMHO, this whole thing about breaking speakers in is, well, silly... at least for a bass rig.

IMHO...

 

[Passinwind]

Actually, if you read the last line of the FAQ, it says:

"The most highly recommended and safest way is several hours of higher volume playing."

I read that as being specifically for guitar speakers. Notice where they mention above that in the FAQ that they frequently use 20Hz signals for speakers that can handle it? At least that's how I'm reading it.

At least to my ears, I hear very little or no diff at all, and pretty much everything I read seems to agree it's not a safety issue, and it's at best a subtle audio issue, so IMHO, this whole thing about breaking speakers in is, well, silly... at least for a bass rig.IMHO...

That's cool, but I'll stick with the recommendations of the very reputable reconers I used to work with, who disagreed vehemently. They always did a burn-in for a couple of hours on anything they reconed. But I also agree with the guy who thinks it should be a standard part of quality control at the factory in the case of new drivers.

In all honesty I have no idea if it matters that much or not. It's trivially easy for me to do the few times a decade I might have occasion to though, so I do it.

 

[sokolasty]

Let's see what audiophiles say:

http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/speaker-break-in-fact-or-fiction

There's such a proverb in Poland:
Opinion is like an a..e - everyone has his own.

I still break in my driver and still hear no difference.

Although - it might help, it won't hurt (another polish saying).

 

[A9X]

Let's see what audiophiles say:

http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/speaker-break-in-fact-or-fiction

There such a proverb in Poland:
Although - it might help, it won't hurt (another polish saying).

That's a very wel written article, and whilst my results differ, especially as I'm interested in distortion more than anything, I'm impressed. I'm also very impressed with the same authors articles on human hearing on that site. Brings together a number of lesser known researchers, methodologies and results.

 

[JOHN.STEWART@GD]

Just for the record ... a car or a pair of shoes are a completely different product than a standalone speaker cone ...

Shoes ... well ... if you can't see the diff than I give up ...

Cars ... well ... Honda may or may not have a point cause of all the moving parts ... don't know ... and they can't put break-in miles on a car legally without it showing the mileage on the odometer ...

A speaker builder just has to send a signal thru it for a test period ... and that shouldn't add ANYTHING to the cost imho ... little or no labour involved.

This should be the price of doing business.

ps - I still love my ACME .

js.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Just for the record ... a car or a pair of shoes are a completely different product than a standalone speaker cone ...

Actually, shoes and speakers are pretty close. Both start off stiff, and with use both soften and work better. In the case of speakers a new driver fresh out of the box won't attain the low frequency performance it's capable of until after the suspension has loosened up through use. But there is absolutely no danger to the driver if you run it to full power before it's fully broken in.

 

[Vic]

That's cool, but I'll stick with the recommendations of the very reputable reconers I used to work with, who disagreed vehemently. They always did a burn-in for a couple of hours on anything they reconed.

Yes, but my question then becomes, was their "burn-in" significantly different than if you'd just plugged in and started playing through it normally?

See, this is my point of contention. IF speakers do actually break in (and we can leave that as a subjective matter if you want, because I belive most of what I've read is it's either indiscernible or at best barely detectable to the human ear -- generally requiring a test environment and test equipment to detect), IMHO, the real point is, is a special and separate procedure really necessary. Almost everything I've read from both experienced players as well as manufacturers says no, which also mimics my personal experiences.

My second argument is, even if they do break in, is this something you'd hear at a gig? I think I'm reading 100% that the answer is no, further indicating it's just not necessary.

However, if folks still just wanna' err on the side of safety, I definitely can't fault that logic. Certainly can't hurt, and I can understand peace of mind is worth a lot.

I should note that, when I did my testing, I was leaning towards buying into it, so if anything I was slanted towards it, not away from it.

 

[KJung]

Yes, but my question then becomes, was their "burn-in" significantly different than if you'd just plugged in and started playing through it normally?

See, this is my point of contention. IF speakers do actually break in (and we can leave that as a subjective matter if you want, because I belive most of what I've read is it's either indiscernible or at best barely detectable to the human ear -- generally requiring a test environment and test equipment to detect), IMHO, the real point is, is a special and separate procedure really necessary. Almost everything I've read from both experienced players as well as manufacturers says no, which also mimics my personal experiences.

My second argument is, even if they do break in, is this something you'd hear at a gig? I think I'm reading 100% that the answer is no, further indicating it's just not necessary.

However, if folks still just wanna' err on the side of safety, I definitely can't fault that logic. Certainly can't hurt, and I can understand peace of mind is worth a lot.

I should note that, when I did my testing, I was leaning towards buying into it, so if anything I was slanted towards it, not away from it.

+1.. .there are two issues here.....

1) Do you need to do anything 'special' to new speakers in order for them to either last longer or not 'fry'.... the concensus is 'absolutely not'... except MAYBE in the case of the rather strange 'low power handling but extremely high x-max' Acme's... and even with these, Andy recommends just playing at moderate volume for an hour or so before really cranking them up to make sure the surrounds are loosened up a touch.

So... seems like a zero issue here.

2) Will the low end of a speaker 'open up' a little bit after a few hours of playing. It seems there MAY be something to this, but the effect would happen after the first gig anyway, so its a moot point. Playing CD's through the speaker, etc. won't impact this effect any more than playing a few tunes on a gig.

 

[Passinwind]

Yes, but my question then becomes, was their "burn-in" significantly different than if you'd just plugged in and started playing through it normally?

See, this is my point of contention. IF speakers do actually break in (and we can leave that as a subjective matter if you want, because I belive most of what I've read is it's either indiscernible or at best barely detectable to the human ear -- generally requiring a test environment and test equipment to detect), IMHO, the real point is, is a special and separate procedure really necessary. Almost everything I've read from both experienced players as well as manufacturers says no, which also mimics my personal experiences.

My second argument is, even if they do break in, is this something you'd hear at a gig? I think I'm reading 100% that the answer is no, further indicating it's just not necessary.

However, if folks still just wanna' err on the side of safety, I definitely can't fault that logic. Certainly can't hurt, and I can understand peace of mind is worth a lot.

I should note that, when I did my testing, I was leaning towards buying into it, so if anything I was slanted towards it, not away from it.

Vic,

I don't relish opening the double-blind testing vs. empirical measurement can of worms, so I'll just leave it like this:

I own a well equipped (hobby) electronics shop and typically nothing I buy goes on a gig before I've at least tested and burned it in. I actually worked QC in a few MI electronics factories. My direct observations and experiences suggest that I can't trust most manufacturers to do this consistently, hence I prefer to do it myself. YMMV, no worries.

That's a very well written article, and whilst my results differ, especially as I'm interested in distortion more than anything, I'm impressed. I'm also very impressed with the same authors articles on human hearing on that site. Brings together a number of lesser known researchers, methodologies and results.

Agreed.

 

[Vic]

Vic,

I don't relish opening the double-blind testing vs. empirical measurement can of worms, so I'll just leave it like this:

I own a well equipped (hobby) electronics shop and typically nothing I buy goes on a gig before I've at least tested and burned it in. I actually worked QC in a few MI electronics factories. My direct observations and experiences suggest that I can't trust most manufacturers to do this consistently, hence I prefer to do it myself. YMMV, no worries.

Fair enough. BTW, I also ran a CS/repair department and worked directly with QC in an electronics manufacturing firm for almost 15 years, so we actually have a lot in common.

I just want to maybe make one clarification...

I'm not suggesting whether we should trust a manufacturer to burn-in or not. My argument is primarily that it's moot, because a special burn-in process is unnecessary on loudspeakers in this application. If that remains a disagreement between us, it's cool with me.

 

[Geoff St. Germaine]

WARNING: I am also a card-carrying-member of the audiophile bent. I also break in my cables- (same process as above). Just got replacement Cardas cables for my Sennheiser HD600 headphones. Broke them in for 12 hours with 'The Anointed Pace Sisters' (Gospel) - much smoother afterwards!

I'm not sure if you're joking or not, but this is one of the most ridiculous myths I've ever heard of in the audiophile snake oil industry (and I've heard it a lot before). The best explanation I've heard for this "phenomenon" is that you "break-in" your ears (much in the way that people get used to the sound of say, switching a preset EQ) or suggestibility (placebo).

Anyway, I've seen some measurements of T/S parameters woofers before and after "breaking in" and there were subtle but definite changes in the compliance of the suspension. Here's one such measurement. I don't really know how much that translates into audible difference or if it means anything as far as damaging a woofer that hasn't been broken in. Of course the speaker will natural break in by being used, regardless of whether you're trying to do it or not.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

I don't really know how much that translates into audible difference or if it means anything as far as damaging a woofer that hasn't been broken in. .

An fs reduction of 10-15 Hz isn't at all unusual, and literally means the difference between, say a 60 Hz and a 75 Hz f3. You'd hear it if you had the two side by side, but the time it takes to break in a driver just playing is far too long for one to be aware of the difference.

IMHO, the real point is, is a special and separate procedure really necessary.

For the average consumer, no. For a manufacturer prototpying a cabinet, yes, as one cannot make a definitive measurement of the finished cabinet until the driver is fully broken in. Assuming, of course, that said manufacturer bothers to go to the trouble of measuring it at all.
Also, if a manufacurer wanted to deliver his cabs in truly 'ready to play' condition they would be broken in at the factory. The proceedure is simple, the gear required inexpensive, but it does take time, and time is money, so don't count on it.

 

[Vic]

IMHO, the real point is, is a special and separate procedure really necessary

For the average consumer, no. For a manufacturer prototpying a cabinet, yes, as one cannot make a definitive measurement of the finished cabinet until the driver is fully broken in.

My understanding is we are talking specifically about bass players and their rigs... or as you say, "average consumers", which is why I think this whole issue is just silly. Strong IMHO disclaimer of course.

For the most part, AFAIK, VERY few of us work in or use labs to analyze our gear, and even if we did, none of the stuff we MIGHT hear (or even may measure) would be detectable in the application for which this stuff was purchased (a live gig for the vast majority of us, since most recording engineers still prefer DI for bass). Again, IMHO.

 

[jokerjkny]

man, this thread is really doing a number on me.

my ears tell me one thing, but cynicism against that is starting to feed my innate cynicism.