Double Bass bridge adjusters or not?

[groooooove]

many purists have two bridges for this reason. I totally get the idea.

i remember asking a luthier about this. he told me about his customer from years ago - NY phil player - swapping a bass between a bridge with and without and playing while a few people listened, without looking, to see which bridge sounded better..

if the difference is detectable, it's certainly not different enough to remember 5 minutes apart, taking time to swap bridges on the bass.

he also said it's less detectable than your leg making contact or not to the back of the bass while you play. logical.

 

[T_Bone_TL]

Well, if one makes everything except the strings and adjusters out of wood (and tuners, end pin, and tail wire I guess), I think that could just do the trick....

I've seen claims that the end pin can make a difference in sound, and wood (or carbon fiber or various other things) is definitely an option there, though it does require a different button to accommodate the larger diameter needed for it to be wood and not break easily. AIUI the pin is usually dismountable rather than sliding in that case (so you have one or more end-pins of different lengths you carry, that pop into a tapered socket in the button.) My highly unreliable sliding metal endpin has caused me to consider that as an improvement since it just won't stay locked dependably, and I've given up and started bringing a box to land it on instead.

A (now late ) great cello playing acquaintance swore by her titanium end pin as being an improvement over the standard steel one.

 

[turf3]

I have seen claims that the relative flexibility of a bridge with adjusters, compared to the stiffness of one without, actually helps in the excitation of the top. I cannot evaluate those claims.

 

[Don Hergert]

I have seen claims...

Yes, I've seen similar claims also for mandolins as well as for guitars which have bridges with adjusters. I've also seen reports contrary to those. I personally have two mandolins which have bridges with adjusters, and one without adjusters. At least with mandolins I can say reliably that no two mandolins sound exactly the same anyway, so it's really not possible for me to say if adjusters make a human-ear noticeable difference.

That said, I tend to believe our luthiers here, who have seen and heard and worked on hundreds if not thousands of double basses with and without adjusters. But I also consider that they probably have extremely sensitive hearing discernment by virtue of trade practice. Mere humans that only work with very few double basses in a lifetime, like myself, may hear but possibly not recognize the same subtle differences.

 

[Bruce Calin]

I recall quite a while back some players were talking up a bridge with a very high arch that supposedly was better at transferring vibration to the top due to less mass. I doubt that this would be practical even if it worked acoustically and don't believe it ever was viable. Anyone remember this?

 

[s van order]

I've seen claims that the end pin can make a difference in sound, and wood (or carbon fiber or various other things) is definitely an option there, though it does require a different button to accommodate the larger diameter needed for it to be wood and not break easily. AIUI the pin is usually dismountable rather than sliding in that case (so you have one or more end-pins of different lengths you carry, that pop into a tapered socket in the button.) My highly unreliable sliding metal endpin has caused me to consider that as an improvement since it just won't stay locked dependably, and I've given up and started bringing a box to land it on instead.

A (now late ) great cello playing acquaintance swore by her titanium end pin as being an improvement over the standard steel one.

I am sorry the loss of your friend. Seems quite a few cellists experiment with endpins, I replaced the steel endpin with carbon fiber on my wood cello and it really opened up the sound.

 

[GretschWretch]

So for your amusement, FWIW, this is my Deuce1 bridge:

View attachment 7086653

It's a mostly aluminum structure, with 2 1/4" bolts leading through the adjusters to the bridge feet. There are 3 relatively small pieces of wood that contact the strings and the double bass. The whole bridge is actually lighter than many wooden double bass bridges...

I've heard these exact same Deuce1 bridges on wooden double basses, and without seeing them you wouldn't know by tone or volume that those wooden double basses had them. These bridges may be thought of as ugly, and they are certainly unconventional, but they do a good job of being a bridge, and by design they permanently resist tipping.

Maybe a little metal in a bridge isn't that bad of a thing.

What's the best metal for bridge? Who needs AI when we can conjure up something like this for ourselves?

 

[Don Hergert]

What's the best metal for bridge? ...

That's a great question. I suspect that the Deuce people used aluminum because it is light and strong and they had access to it and skills with welding it, in other words it was convenient. There was a later version of the Deuce bridge that was CNC'ed out of billet aluminum, but that version was not in production for very long. The welded Deuce1 bridge like mine is still available new from one of the designers.

 

[AGCurry]

What's the best metal for bridge? Who needs AI when we can conjure up something like this for ourselves?

Don't you mean "What's the best bridge for metal?"

 

[GretschWretch]

Don't you mean "What's the best bridge for metal?"

On the EB side, yes; not here.

 

[bassically_eli]

On the EB side, yes; not here.

Unless it's an Alcoa....

 

[Don Hergert]

Unless it's an Alcoa....

I know, it was a joke, but...

The aluminum Deuce bridge does have an excellent reputation on aluminum double basses. That longer, perpendicular bass-side foot does an excellent job of preventing flopping and slippage, both which a standard bridge is more prone to do on a smooth aluminum double bass top table.

But, that isn't the reason my Alcoa is wearing a Deuce1 bridge... As it works out, all the repair and hot-rodding of my double bass was done in the early 20-teens by Deuce Bass Co., a small So. Cal. firm. As a result, it wears both a Deuce1 bridge and a custom Deuce tailpiece.

 

[the_Ryan]

I've seen claims that the end pin can make a difference in sound, and wood (or carbon fiber or various other things) is definitely an option there, though it does require a different button to accommodate the larger diameter needed for it to be wood and not break easily. AIUI the pin is usually dismountable rather than sliding in that case (so you have one or more end-pins of different lengths you carry, that pop into a tapered socket in the button.) My highly unreliable sliding metal endpin has caused me to consider that as an improvement since it just won't stay locked dependably, and I've given up and started bringing a box to land it on instead.

A (now late ) great cello playing acquaintance swore by her titanium end pin as being an improvement over the standard steel one.

In my opinion/experience, the main issue with the standard 10mm endpin on bass is all the excess metal inside the instrument vibrating like a tuning fork. Carbon fiber and wood don't really vibrate with the same intensity, so having that excess length doesn't affect the sound as much. I personally got around that issue by taking a hacksaw to my metal endpin a couple notches above where I set it.

Regarding the OP, adjusters are helpful enough to me as a player that any minor negative sound impact is worth it if it means I can dial my string heights correctly.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Well, the article I was referring to is not in any of the DOUBLE BASSIST mags that I still have…

 

[Ed Fuqua]

But apparently it WAS in the ISB magazine....

https://awbmusic.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/2000_An_Acoustical_Study_on_Bass_Bridge_Adjusters.pdf

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

But apparently it WAS in the ISB magazine....

https://awbmusic.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/2000_An_Acoustical_Study_on_Bass_Bridge_Adjusters.pdf

Interesting. I read this well over a decade ago and find some agreement; mainly with the tone of brass and aluminum. Tonal differences are minimal, but real.

 

[keiranhohara]

Trouble with an awful lot of acoustical studies of instrument is the small sample size. Every one of these basses are their own individual with their own tonal personalities.

In general, I prefer the way one piece aluminum adjusters sound. We had a bass from the Army Band at West Point (smaller 3/4 german bass c.1880/90s freshly restored by AES Fine Instruments) that through experimentation we found it sounded significantly better with the brass adjusters. The marginal difference was next to unnoticeable except from the driver's seat, but if you're the one living with the beast all day and every time you practice, it was a worth while journey to try different adjusters.

 

[turf3]

Trouble with an awful lot of acoustical studies of instrument is the small sample size. Every one of these basses are their own individual with their own tonal personalities.
...

The other almost universal issue is lack of blindness. When everyone in the room knows what's being played, confirmation bias takes over. Few professional musicians have the kind of experience and training of professional experimenters. Professional experimentalists - scientists and engineers - know very well that confirmation bias will pollute absolutely EVERYTHING if you let it. Many times, when something subjective (like sound quality) is being assessed, far more effort is spent on trying to root out confirmation bias effects than on the actual experiment itself.

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Trouble with an awful lot of acoustical studies of instrument is the small sample size. Every one of these basses are their own individual with their own tonal personalities.

In general, I prefer the way one piece aluminum adjusters sound. We had a bass from the Army Band at West Point (smaller 3/4 german bass c.1880/90s freshly restored by AES Fine Instruments) that through experimentation we found it sounded significantly better with the brass adjusters. The marginal difference was next to unnoticeable except from the driver's seat, but if you're the one living with the beast all day and every time you practice, it was a worth while journey to try different adjusters.

Interesting. I worked for several years at KC Strings setting up basses (losing count when I passed 4,000….) Their KRUTZ basses are becoming popular. KC Strings has always used one piece brass adjusters with an 8mm 1.25 thread and although they work well, I always preferred a one piece aluminum for my own bass.
For whatever reason, I experimented and discovered that the brass have a much fuller tone with a solid low end. Aluminum sounded a bit more open and slightly brighter. The differences are not significant and I don’t stress about it. If someone wants a new adjustable bridge I will normally use aluminum, but if they have good brass adjusters in their current bridge and are happy with the sound of their bass, I may use those.

 

[Paps]

I got adjusters a while ago. Probably because I felt I should have them as do many others.
The fact is, I probably didn't need them as the climate here is quite moderate.
On balance, I probably shouldn't have got them, I don't need them, never adjust them and my bass is no better...
I would only get if you live in an area with extreme difference in Summer and Winter temperatures, in which case you might have a summer and winter sound post.