Yep, and they invented the graphite neck.. (well it was Rick Turner along with Geoff Gould).
As far as no truss rods.. been done many times.. Martin, Danelectro, etc.
They switched to truss rods for a reason!
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Building neck made easy, what do you think?
- Thread starter bassman74
- Start date
Yep, and they invented the graphite neck.. (well it was Rick Turner along with Geoff Gould).
As far as no truss rods.. been done many times.. Martin, Danelectro, etc.
They switched to truss rods for a reason!
Hey, it sounds like a cool idea though... keep working on it!
Personally I don't use any relief. But a lot of people do.
It works for Vigier. No trussrod for over 20 years.
To answer the former post, I don't understand why you'd want a straight neck under strings that vibrate with a curve.
OTOH, if cheap guitars like Squiers had necks that were locked in to a "standard" neck relief shape and never moved (and that shape were produced properly), that could be a good thing. I think maybe this market never even considers adjusting the neck, or getting a fret job - just changing strings is a technical exercise for some - so a "perfect", invariant neck might work.
Lower action. I feel relief starts too close to the nut. With an open string the large part of the arc is at the middle of the string, which would be around the 24th fret. Fretting the string pushes the wide part of the arc farther up the neck, and there usually aren't any frets higher than the 24th anyway, so no relief is needed up there. Also the relief flattens out around the 12th fret, so most of that portion of the fingerboard is straight.
The reason a flat neck will work with a vibrating string is because the string is not the same distance above the fingerboard the entire distance... it gets higher as it goes up, which accommodates the string's arc pretty well.
What I think works better is a straight, or almost straight neck, and having the fingerboard ramp down as it approaches the end of the board. That's where you need the relief, and it's a common thing to do.
But it all depends on your playing and what feels good. And that's why adjustable necks are a good thing.
The middle of the string is at the 12th fret, not 24th. It is also where the body of the vibrating envelope is the widest and where you need the most relief.
Conveniently, this is exactly the shape of a properly adjusted neck. Most reliaf on 12th fret, barely any on first frets and way less on 24th.
If you want a proper setup on a flat neck, you will have to compromise with rattling strings at 12th fret and high action on first frets, where the strings already are hard to push.
Conveniently, this is exactly the shape of a properly adjusted neck. Most reliaf on 12th fret, barely any on first frets and way less on 24th.
If you want a proper setup on a flat neck, you will have to compromise with rattling strings at 12th fret and high action on first frets, where the strings already are hard to push.
Yeah, you're correct... what was I thinking.. 12th fret.
But still it's only the proper neck shape for an open string.
A lot of luthiers aren't using much relief anymore, and I find I like my necks almost perfectly straight.
For instance, here's Dan Erlewine's recommendation:
You can see that the neck flattens out from about the 9th fret. So you really don't have the relief under the 12th.
But it's all personal preference.
What I think you should do is make a system that would allow the user to set the bow of the neck without the strings on, thus making it so rigid that the string tension doesn't alter the bow. Then relief setting would become much easier, and would give player more room for fine-tuning.
Double action rods let you do this. That combined with a super stiffener would be cool. There was a company once that put an aluminum honeycomb matrix in their neck along with the truss rod.
What I want to do is get a carbon fiber U channel and stick the rod in that.
Good point!
I make my necks very stiff... maple with purpleheart laminations, two truss rods with carbon fiber between, and a phenolic fingerboard laminated to maple and purpleheart veneers.
The truss rods work well, and I rarely have to adjust them.
But I see some people using really hard stiff woods for their necks... you really don't need to do all that! I now think mine are overbuilt as well.
Some of the nicest sounding necks I've heard were relatively soft wood.. poplar, basswood, limba, etc., and then stiffened up with graphite. They have a nice warm tone and a lot of sustain.
The "stiffness" of a neck, in my opnion, has nothing to do with how good a bass, or any instrument for that matter, will sound. The popular trend of multi-laminate necks does not seem to produce incredibely better sounding instruments. I believe it all comes down to, and not just in neck construction, matching or mismatching impedances of different materials. If stiffness would produce character, warmth, clarity, definition, growl, punch etc., wouldn't we all play concrete necks ? 
A 3-piece maple neck with a truss rod and glued on frettboard is plenty strong for my needs.
And yes, I have built basses with Moses Grphite necks that I didn't really like, played necks with Graphite rods and found no difference in tone, response, playability etc. Yes, I am stuck in a rut, and I love it
A 3-piece maple neck with a truss rod and glued on frettboard is plenty strong for my needs.
And yes, I have built basses with Moses Grphite necks that I didn't really like, played necks with Graphite rods and found no difference in tone, response, playability etc. Yes, I am stuck in a rut, and I love it
The "stiffness" of a neck, in my opnion, has nothing to do with how good a bass, or any instrument for that matter, will sound. The popular trend of multi-laminate necks does not seem to produce incredibely better sounding instruments. I believe it all comes down to, and not just in neck construction, matching or mismatching impedances of different materials. If stiffness would produce character, warmth, clarity, definition, growl, punch etc., wouldn't we all play concrete necks ?
Very true!
A 3-piece maple neck with a truss rod and glued on frettboard is plenty strong for my needs.
And yes, I have built basses with Moses Grphite necks that I didn't really like, played necks with Graphite rods and found no difference in tone, response, playability etc. Yes, I am stuck in a rut, and I love it
I think just laminating a neck makes a big difference. I wont make one piece necks. The rest is just adding a little something. I can't say if the graphite rods are doing anything or not, since I haven't made a neck without them.
Like I said, I over built my necks from worrying about them too much! I do like the end result though.
Hey, thats a very cool looking headstock. Has a Picasso vibe.
Very true!
I think just laminating a neck makes a big difference. I wont make one piece necks. The rest is just adding a little something. I can't say if the graphite rods are doing anything or not, since I haven't made a neck without them.
Like I said, I over built my necks from worrying about them too much! I do like the end result though.
Hey, thats a very cool looking headstock. Has a Picasso vibe.
Don't change a winning team
My first bass that I built had a 9-piece wenge/maple neck and boy, it sounded like pure crap ...
My most recent necks are made of 2 pieces of maple with a contrasting veneer down the middle, single truss rod and frettboard. They sound much better then anything I have built so far.
I'm glad you like my headstock. Did you mean to say that it has a Guild/Neuman Leathers vibe ?
I like the idea of including a truss rod in my Carbon fiber device. I don't think it would be too much of a problem and it would make everybody happy, LOL
IS it a problem for you guys to work with epoxy instead of wood glue? Epoxy works perfect with Carbon fiber but what about you???
thanks
francois
IS it a problem for you guys to work with epoxy instead of wood glue? Epoxy works perfect with Carbon fiber but what about you???
thanks
francois
Did you mean to say that it has a Guild/Neuman Leathers vibe ?
No, that would be a musty old building smell vibe.
Picasso or even Wandre.
The thing about making a really stiff neck is to marry it to a warm sounding body.
I don't like wenge... I refuse to use it.
My current build has a maple/mahogony/perpleheart/birdseye maple neck (outside to middle), on an ash with bigleaf quilt top.
Should be interesting to hear what comes out of that.
Moses was making a nice U channel, but they don't make it anymore. I was going to try that.
You have to use epoxy. Epoxy is good stuff. We use epoxy to glue all our fingerboards on. We use Industrial Formulations G-1 & G-2 Epoxy. I used G-2 to glue an entire bass together! I think that bass has a bit more presence than the same model glued with Titebond. It was messy to work with though, so I probably wouldn't do that again!
I glued up my current neck blank with G-2.
West Systems is another good brand.
Wear gloves though, as epoxy isn't all that good for you before it's cured.
Gee, I don't know about that... a lot of luthiers use epoxy. If for no other reason, a lot of luthiers use CF for everything from neck to brace stiffeners. These are the same people who use hot hide glue.
Gee, I don't know about that... a lot of luthiers use epoxy. If for no other reason, a lot of luthiers use CF for everything from neck to brace stiffeners. These are the same people who use hot hide glue.
Mmmhhh, those european instrument makers are very traditional and those crazy american ones are, well, crazy !
I read many things about carbon fiber sound , they say its metallic. Polyethylene fibers are the closest to wood sound. I dont like carbon because it is black and make the instrument like metallica teen gear. I think you can try kevlar , its in golden color and easier to work with and times cheaper than the carbon cloth. You can even make your own cloth fabric pattern with kevlar rowing techniques taken from north sails three dimensional laminate techniques. - its a fantasy but a requirement for a purist , i think -
Instrument making is a serious business than many thinks. There is finite element analysis programs - algor , catia and others - which simulates neck under load and vibration.
If you want to climb the top of the business , look to martin schleske violin makers from munich.
You give them a stradivari and they totally copy its all vibrations for all possible playing with totally different shape instrument !
modal analysis , accelerometers , hundreds of points and their communication at a computer program and calculation of graduation of top , bottom , neck , fingerboard and everything.
If you really want to copy a fender jazz bass - if you worship it -with a fiber reinforced plastic instrument , this is where you have to read from.
If you want to produce carbon necks with wasting 50 for each and selling for 500 , , advise you to not to invent bass again and purely copy the best selling neck with molding it with silicone rubber.
If you want to be a purist , contact with martin and ask from him some reference books , papers on business.
Accelerometers vary from extreme cheap to 250 dollars . You can download the simulation softwares from mininova.org with microtorrent program free.
If there is a mechanical or industrial engineering school at near to you , you can get students help.
If you still want to build in carbon , there is graphite powders easily mixed with epoxy and cast in to the mold. its again black again carbon but 10 times cheaper. WEST sells color reinforcing powders also
dont forget to add a ultrasonic speaker for to remove the bubbles in mold.
i think you will get a patent , big companies crack the patents with genetic algorithmic design techniques.
You think you are signing the best product but computers attack the design and mutate thousands times in a second and find a better optimal design than your invention.
if you know how to mutate your design in a computer , you will want to get second and third patents.
this is all i knew.
best ,
mustafa umut sarac
Instrument making is a serious business than many thinks. There is finite element analysis programs - algor , catia and others - which simulates neck under load and vibration.
If you want to climb the top of the business , look to martin schleske violin makers from munich.
You give them a stradivari and they totally copy its all vibrations for all possible playing with totally different shape instrument !
modal analysis , accelerometers , hundreds of points and their communication at a computer program and calculation of graduation of top , bottom , neck , fingerboard and everything.
If you really want to copy a fender jazz bass - if you worship it -with a fiber reinforced plastic instrument , this is where you have to read from.
If you want to produce carbon necks with wasting 50 for each and selling for 500 , , advise you to not to invent bass again and purely copy the best selling neck with molding it with silicone rubber.
If you want to be a purist , contact with martin and ask from him some reference books , papers on business.
Accelerometers vary from extreme cheap to 250 dollars . You can download the simulation softwares from mininova.org with microtorrent program free.
If there is a mechanical or industrial engineering school at near to you , you can get students help.
If you still want to build in carbon , there is graphite powders easily mixed with epoxy and cast in to the mold. its again black again carbon but 10 times cheaper. WEST sells color reinforcing powders also
dont forget to add a ultrasonic speaker for to remove the bubbles in mold.
i think you will get a patent , big companies crack the patents with genetic algorithmic design techniques.
You think you are signing the best product but computers attack the design and mutate thousands times in a second and find a better optimal design than your invention.
if you know how to mutate your design in a computer , you will want to get second and third patents.
this is all i knew.
best ,
mustafa umut sarac
