Building neck made easy, what do you think?

[pilotjones]

Kevlar has very different properties from carbon fiber. It is not in any way a substitute.

Likewise, a composite made of graphite powder in an epoxy base will have properties not at all like oriented carbon fiber in any polymeric matrix.

 

[SDB Guitars]

Is it just me, or does Mustafa always seem to write out of left fiald?

 

[Keith Guitars]

Hi Everyone,

First of all, I'm a bit of a latecomer here, so I'll recap a couple
of points from a few posts ago.

-Modulus necks included truss rods for a few reasons,
chief among which is that they need them. I own and
play a Modulus Q6, and I wish it had one.
It needs it. Too much relief. Period.

Any, any, any neck will deflect under string tension.
It may be too little to notice, but I have yet to come across
a neck that confirms even that. It's always noticeable,
or at least measurable.

-The OPs idea is a "necks for dummies" system. To me,
this need is already met by Warmoth, WD, USACG, etc. etc.
I'm not sure where the advantage is.

-I've built otherwise identical basses where one neck was
noticeably more flexible than the other...same maple from
the same pile, both graphite reinforced (2x 1/4" square bars).
Interestingly enough, 3 of us agreed that the more
flexible neck sounded a little better.

We've all been tempted by the idea of necks without rods.
It's a nice, charming concept, which is kind of risky.
Sometimes it works, but more often IME it doesn't.
We even put rods in our nylon-string guitars, and
I'm glad we do - I often end up using them to adjust
the final action to someone's taste.

-If weight reduction is the goal, you can accomplish that
with an "alternative" rod. Ken Parker's 1-way piano-wire
"rods" were 18-20g or so, and Teuffel makes a 2-way rod
that is under 30g. You can't really ask for lighter.
Adding a graphite fabric skin to the exterior of the neck,
again a la Parker, is the only other way I can think of
to appreciably increase the stiffness of a neck without
invasive routing. This, and possibly the wire rod, are
patented ideas, though...

As ever, my question is this: what are you really trying to
accomplish, and for whom? Is there a market, and how will
the new product be better than what's currently available?

Finally, and I don't mean this to sound cranky - we are all subject to the desire to make something new or different, just
because it's new and different. I've found it's always best to
determine an actual need, and then use available techniques and
materials to meet it, rather than the inverse.

That said - if you have the time, energy, and means to
experiment with this, then go for it! You could end up
with something that really works well and shuts us all right up.

Peace,
Martin

 

[radii]

-I've built otherwise identical basses where one neck was
noticeably more flexible than the other...same maple from
the same pile, both graphite reinforced (2x 1/4" square bars).
Interestingly enough, 3 of us agreed that the more
flexible neck sounded a little better.

Keith, how were you able to determine that it was the neck, that made the difference ?

I really don't see why, other then as an engineering exercise/novum, one would not want a truss rod. I find it to be perfect for adjusting the action/feel of the instrument. A purist might not like the idea of having a threaded "screw" in his wood neck, but unless one approaches upright bass neck dimensions, one can't do without ( or some other means of counteracting the string pull ).
This might have been debated ad nauseum, but these graphite rods @ ~1/4"X1/2" ( or so ) , before they get glued in, do not feel stronger/stiffer then a same sized piece of maple, padauk, wenge, purpleheart etc.
Even the graphite u-channel that David mentioned, can be flexed considerably with very little force. Might just bee my supernatural bicep strength
Please prove me wrong ...

 

[PilbaraBass]

it's interesting people are talking about trussrod-free necks and saying that it's "simple" just put in graphite stiffeners...

interesting...

is it really "easy" to do this? or would it be simpler to just use a conventional trussrod?


I have a trussrod-free bass, by the way...it is stiff as a board...hasn't moved in the 3 1/2 years I've had it...it's as thick as a baseball bat...5 laminations maple/purpleheart/maple/purpleheart/maple...with a purpleheart fingerboard, that neck is going NOWHERE...no graphite, no trussrod...just solid, SOLID wood...

yes, it's a wishbass, and yes it gets a lot of "YUK" responses by most TBers...don't blame them, the finish and attention to detail is AWEFUL (although I did improve it SIGNIFICANTLY!)...

but we're talking about construction techniques here, not finish techniques...

IMO...I'll take a bass with a trussrod, thanks, that way, I can set it up the way that I want.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

I shouldn't... but...

Polyethylene fibers are the closest to wood sound.

Would that be; UHMWPE, HDPE, PEX, MDPE, LLDPE, LDPE, or VLDPE? And how would you plan on gluing that stuff? Not with epoxy! Polythene is pretty soft. Aluminum has a closer modulus to wood.

UHMWPE is commonly used for jigs when you don't want glue to stick to it. It's also not very rigid.

I dont like carbon because it is black and make the instrument like metallica teen gear.

Paint it. Better yet, put it inside a wood neck.

If you really want to copy a fender jazz bass

I don't think we really need any more Jazz Bass copies. It's boring enough as it is!

If you still want to build in carbon , there is graphite powders easily mixed with epoxy and cast in to the mold.

Have you ever used graphite guitar picks or worked with graphite nuts? They are very weak. You need the long strands of carbon fiber. Power will not do.

i think you will get a patent , big companies crack the patents with genetic algorithmic design techniques.

Genetic?

You think you are signing the best product but computers attack the design and mutate thousands times in a second and find a better optimal design than your invention.

No one does this... it's pure fantasy. Otherwise someone would have come out with a better iPod!

if you know how to mutate your design in a computer , you will want to get second and third patents.

Doesn't work that way. You must show you have either improved on a design, or you have something novel.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

-I've built otherwise identical basses where one neck was noticeably more flexible than the other...same maple from the same pile, both graphite reinforced (2x 1/4" square bars). Interestingly enough, 3 of us agreed that the more
flexible neck sounded a little better.

The neck you liked better was probably lighter in weight. We've made some necks from basswood and poplar, and they sound great... but you have to stiffen them.

We've all been tempted by the idea of necks without rods.

Not me! I use two truss rods and graphite in my basses!

-If weight reduction is the goal, you can accomplish that with an "alternative" rod. Ken Parker's 1-way piano-wire "rods" were 18-20g or so, and Teuffel makes a 2-way rod
that is under 30g. You can't really ask for lighter. Adding a graphite fabric skin to the exterior of the neck, again a la Parker, is the only other way I can think of to appreciably increase the stiffness of a neck without invasive routing. This, and possibly the wire rod, are
patented ideas, though...

Parker did that because it's a very lightweight neck made from basswood. The music wire might not work on a maple neck. He wanted to keep the weight down for tonal reasons, and also to not have the guitar neck heavy. He also has that fiberglass and carbon fretboard. The carbon fiber isn't just on the back of the neck, it extends all the way down the body. His inspiration was medieval lute neck design. They used a soft wood covered in something like ebony veneer.

Some of the newer parkers with harder wood necks have conventional truss rods, but they are very thin.

As ever, my question is this: what are you really trying to accomplish, and for whom? Is there a market, and how will the new product be better than what's currently available?

I use graphite because I feel it adds stability, and also I can hear where it evens out the response of the neck. I have zero dead spots, every note is even in volume, and I rarely have to adjust my necks.

Sometimes it's nice to try some high tech stuff.

BTW, there's no need to hit return at the end of your lines... it auto wraps.

 

[GregHolmes]

Just to confirm the trussrod issue in the case of BassLab: The instruments were originally built without trussrods, but it was due to my urging that they were added. And it was done purely for adjustablity - they are not needed for strength at all. The monocoque construction and materials used are plenty strong enough, while retaining the ability to resonate in a musically useful manner. The trussrod simply allows the instrument to be adjusted to the players taste.

 

[Rhythm5]

Personally, I wouldn't buy a bass without a truss rod. As far as graphite goes, I think Modulus hit a home run with the Genesis necks.