• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Busting the Scale Length Myth

B

bbehrens

Apr 4, 2007
98
0
#1
Someone please help me understand this engineering concept.

The Novax System has (typically) a 34" scale standard G string and a 37" standard B string (I've been looking closely at Dingwalls :D )

The story goes that a longer scale means a tighter B string.

We'll simplify this to just four string so no division is required. Us bass players worry about fewer strings than guitar players (except for the six and seven string bass players and they just like to intimidate the guitar players!) so math is generally more difficult for us! :D

Standard A440 tuning.

G ---------------------------------- 34"
D ---------------------------------- 34"
A ---------------------------------- 34"
E ---------------------------------- 34"

Let's take the E string and stretch that sucker from 34" to 36" (We don't want to stretch it too much).

G ---------------------------------- 34"
D ----------------------------------- 35"
A ------------------------------------ 36"
E ------------------------------------- 37"

My E string sounds more like it went up a couple of steps!

So I need to tune it back down so it sounds like an E again!

I just lost the tension I got from the longer string.

This was my experience playing a Dingwall.

I still like the idea of the NOVAX fanned fret system - after all, it is closer to the way grand pianos are made which makes sense to me.

But a tighter B string? It seems that a thicker gauge string would also get you there and this is often recommended by some luthiers I have heard from.

What do you folks think?

- bsb
 
#2
Correct me if I'm wrong, but a "tighter" B-string often refers to a tight sound, not necessarily extra tension.

But I would still think that a 37"-long string tuned to E will still have more tension than a 34"-scale string tuned to E.

As you mentioned, string gauge and type play a big role here, too.

Stretching that same E string from 34" to 36", as in your figurative experiment, would put an insane amount of tension in the strings.
 
#3
Tighter and lighter both equal higher pitch. If you have two strings both of the same gauge but different lengths (34 and 37) then the longer string will weight more. If you put the same tension on both of the strings then the 37 inch string will be at a lower pitch because it weighs more. To bring it back to the same pitch as the 34 inch string you will have to make it tighter. A larger gauge 34 inch string will also weigh more and require more tension to bring it to the same pitch.

So if you want a tighter B string then you need to make it heavier. You can either use a larger gauge string at the same scale length of the same gauge string at a longer scale length. The pitch will be the same either way but the tone and the feel of the string will be different.
 
#4
bbehrens said:
Someone please help me understand this engineering concept....I just lost the tension I got from the longer string.....What do you folks think?
Click to expand...

You forgot one important point. You can use progressively lighter gauge strings as they get lower in pitch, therefore you get the advantage of longer scale to add tension, but take that away by lighter gauge. So, your net gain is a more flexible string with equal tension. Ideally, tension can be equal on all strings in terms of pounds of pull. If you check the tension on most strings sets, this is not the case with equal scale.

You could just use thicker strings, but in general you want the most flexible string for truer harmonic content. The thicker a string gets, the more it tends to vibrate like a clamped metal bar and less like a string. The Novax approach is an attempt to get a more even tone.
 
#5
See, the true benefit of longer scale lengths is relying on a thinner gauge string.

If you follow tension equally high to low a B string ought to live in the .135 range. The down side to this is that at this point the string starts to sound dissimilar from the balance of your set because .135 is where string construction starts robbing you of transients.

.135 and thicker - regardless of tension - start to accent the fundamental at the expense of upper harmonics because the string is less free to vibrate. The thicker you go the more pronounced the effect. I have had wound up to a .275 so I have this on reliable evidence.
 
#6
BassicJohn said:
Tighter and lighter both equal higher pitch. If you have two strings both of the same gauge but different lengths (34 and 37) then the longer string will weight more. If you put the same tension on both of the strings then the 37 inch string will be at a lower pitch because it weighs more. To bring it back to the same pitch as the 34 inch string you will have to make it tighter. A larger gauge 34 inch string will also weigh more and require more tension to bring it to the same pitch.

So if you want a tighter B string then you need to make it heavier. You can either use a larger gauge string at the same scale length of the same gauge string at a longer scale length. The pitch will be the same either way but the tone and the feel of the string will be different.
Click to expand...

Nice. This adds a little to my understanding.

A "tighter sound" as someone else posted is a good point too but is arbitrary to my question since it is such a subjective aspect. I do get that though. Thanks!

I think the Novax system makes sense. Too bad you don't see it more often.

- bsb
 
#7
I won't drag it out, but the advantage of F
fanned frets isn't tied to longer scale, the 2 just go well together in a 5 string bass, for which B string tension is a common problem. The beauty of fanned frets/multi-scale is that tension/feel are very similar from string to string. With 34-37" scale you get both a tighter feeling B and even string tension. The B doesn't sound like a sore thumb and you don't have to "back off' when you strike it.
 
#9
bbehrens said:
Let's take the E string and stretch that sucker from 34" to 36" (We don't want to stretch it too much). My E string sounds more like it went up a couple of steps! So I need to tune it back down so it sounds like an E again! I just lost the tension I got from the longer string.
Click to expand...

That doesn't sound like you're accounting for the increase in tension caused by stretching the string, which would be more than the tension lost by tuning it back down to E.
 
#10
BSB-
the novax fretboard makes sense, and on a Dingwall it equates primarily to even tension across all strings and even tone out of each string and notes.
The reason you didn't see it on alot of basses is too many folks think the fanned fretboard is extreme and they will have to relearn the bass. Its an unfortunate misconception, but for those who have played one- they quickly learn its all in the eyes not your hands

-so your experience on the Dingwall was that the E string and B string felt looser? or is it that you noticed for the first time, that all the strings on the Dingwall were even, and you didn't have a loose E and a super tight G?
Most of the time when new folks play my basses they notice two things 1) the fanned fret pose no problems, and 2) the string tension is even- its noticable

if you've ever play a fender bass before then grabbed a Dingwall thats the first thing that you feel
frank
 
#11
danomite64 said:
That doesn't sound like you're accounting for the increase in tension caused by stretching the string, which would be more than the tension lost by tuning it back down to E.
Click to expand...

Exactly this, much simpler than I was ready to put it. If your logic was correct, then 34" wouldn't make sense either, you'd getter greater tension with a 30" or even less (taking 30" as the starting point and "stretching" up to 34"). I'm sorry, I'm afraid you'll have to postpone "Busting the Scale Length Myth" for some other day :smug:
 
#12
As I understand, when Sheldon was deciding scale length(s) he was focused on how well each string 'spoke', not the tension. My ears tell me that the Novax system as implemented by Sheldon works very well. Did you play one and not like it?

Ken
 
#13
FCM3 said:
BSB-
the novax fretboard makes sense, and on a Dingwall it equates primarily to even tension across all strings and even tone out of each string and notes.
The reason you didn't see it on alot of basses is too many folks think the fanned fretboard is extreme and they will have to relearn the bass. Its an unfortunate misconception, but for those who have played one- they quickly learn its all in the eyes not your hands

-so your experience on the Dingwall was that the E string and B string felt looser? or is it that you noticed for the first time, that all the strings on the Dingwall were even, and you didn't have a loose E and a super tight G?
Most of the time when new folks play my basses they notice two things 1) the fanned fret pose no problems, and 2) the string tension is even- its noticable

if you've ever play a fender bass before then grabbed a Dingwall thats the first thing that you feel
frank
Click to expand...

I currently play a Fender P-Bass. I really don't know if it is a "classic tone" since my bass has a humbucker at the bridge position but it definately has the "tone" I am looking for. A shame really since I have this Love-Hate relationship with the tone on my bass. I want vintage tone with perfect clarity and the modern ring of the Ric.

I loved the Dingwall bass. The Afterburner I is about all I can afford (if I stretch my finances a bit) but I did not fall in love with it. But really, I did not fall in love with the Zon, Modulus or any other boutique basses I have tried. I have not tried many and perhaps I need to own one for a while before I fall in love with it. But with budget in mind...

But I picked up an unassuming Fender AmDlx P-bass (exactly like mine except newer and not Honey Blonde - and some 3-band EQ stuff - I think Fender backed off the +/-18db my bass has - it is significant!) and knew instantly that was the tone I was after. Unfortunately, that was my bass which I can not actually walk through an entire song before I determine that was not the tone I wanted on the bass. It is not my technique either as I have been playing bass for over 20 years and my technique matches the "Bass fundamentals" videos I keep watching - Thx Norm Stockton! "Art of the Groove".

- bsb
 
#15
BSB-
No problem, different strokes for different folks.
I haven't found to many peep who haven't like/loved Dingwalls, once they've played them. Now, affording them is a different story.

However for the physcis behind them, and how the physics impacts the playability and sound is really what makes these basses special.

Glad you found your tone -in the ends thats really what matters to you

frank
 
#16
Jeff Moote said:
I really can't get past the fact that a world full of musicians can't understand the physics of this.

For a string of the same specs and tuned to the same pitch, longer = tighter, period.
Click to expand...

Yes, the physics of vibration will always remain. The simple conversion from 34" to 35" scale solved a lot of flop with the additional tension. I think this is an easy way to have a tighter sound, although at the cost of being uncomfortable to some players, more tension on the neck requiring better reinforcement, not all strings are long enough, and sometimes the G feels really stiff. Tonal characteristics of the wood can improve the tone, despite decreased tension.

If you look at the D'Addario tension charts, you'd probably notice that the D and G have the most tension. You could always get different strings to have more consistent tension, OR you could change the scale of each string to get uniform tension with conventional strings.

Somewhere down the line I'm looking at a CB 7 fanned from 37" to 34", mostly so I can do Dropped A on the low B string. I could probably do 36" all, but why not give fanned frets a shot???

Oddly enough, my Mouse 30 is only a 30" scale bass, but it has a very meaty dropped D. I got the Hipshot d-tuner upon the suggestion of Rob and I thought it wouldn't hurt the bass. If it sucked, I'd leave it in E. Much to my surprise, this low D can give my 35" scale basses a run for the money. Why? No clue!!!!!
 
#17
Jeff Moote said:
I really can't get past the fact that a world full of musicians can't understand the physics of this.

For a string of the same specs and tuned to the same pitch, longer = tighter, period.
Click to expand...

It is not easy for me to comprehend - I only play 4 strings! :eek:

But Seriously...

So...

Standard Bass Guitar 34" scale using D'addario EPS160-5 - Medium Strings (D'addario gives information on string tension and gauge)

Standard Tuning so the Open Low B rings at 30.8677 (Note frequency) on a standard A440 tuning pitch frequency

The string tension will be 34.3 lbs (See D'addario web site for string stated above)

The calculated k factor (mass/tension relation) is .86

So if I switch to a 37" scale on my same B string and keep pitch the low B rings at 30.8677 (Note Frequency)

The string tension will be 40.5 lbs (as calculated)

Longer = tighter (No doubt about it - The physics conlcude this mathmatically)

I am convinced.

Resources:
wikipedia:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed])

Terry Downs:
Link Removed

D'addario web site
http://www.daddario.com/DADProdDetail.aspx?CodaID=1087&ID=3&Class=ACGA
 
#19
bbehrens said:
...Standard Bass Guitar 34" scale using D'addario EPS160-5 - Medium Strings (D'addario gives information on string tension and gauge)

Standard Tuning so the Open Low B rings at 30.8677 (Note frequency) on a standard A440 tuning pitch frequency

The string tension will be 34.3 lbs (See D'addario web site for string stated above)

The calculated k factor (mass/tension relation) is .86, So if I switch to a 37" scale on my same B string and keep pitch the low B rings at 30.8677 (Note Frequency)

The string tension will be 40.5 lbs (as calculated) Longer = tighter (No doubt about it - The physics conlcude this mathmatically) I am convinced.

Resources:
wikipedia:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed])

Terry Downs:
Link Removed

D'addario web site
http://www.daddario.com/DADProdDetail.aspx?CodaID=1087&ID=3&Class=ACGA
Click to expand...

Thank you for one of the finest TB posts I have ever read! :hyper:
 
#20
bbehrens hit the nail on the head here.

Long scale basses are especially good for those players who play in drop or de-tuned tunings but also for those tuned in standard tunings. I believe anyone that can shell out the cash for a longer scale bass could hugely benefit from it.

Being that I'm one of those players who now play in standard D tuning (A,D,G,C,F,B - 6-string) I really can tell you about the pitfalls of playing a shorter scale bass in de-tuned tunings. Not only did I have to go to a Gotoh 201 bridge, Gotoh tuners, and not to mention the hours it took to set the action and intonation up on my J-bass it was a huge pain using the bass in the studio because of small string rattles or pick-up scape from the strings. Thus I had to lay down my tracks with a longer scale bass, my old Yamaha TRB 35" scale.

Long scale basses aren't for everyone or even needed for everyone. But the physics speaks for itself and no matter how many times it's brought they will never change.

*shrug*
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back