Buzz Feiten Blues

[steveksux]

Did you try this, has the "secret, patented" offsets reportedly lifted off the public domain US Patent office website.

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Also this:
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My apologies if you've already found this...

Randy

 

[secretdonkey]

Thanks, Steve. I am familiar with the stuff on the Peterson forum. The other link was new to me and very promising... alas, neither makes it totally, unambiguously clear.

Thanks, though.

 

[nashvillebill]

FWIW:

a few months ago I was about to buy an acoustic-electric bass, until I saw it had the BF setup. I had no experience with it and had no opinion on it, so naturally I Googled it....it took hours to sort through various sites, but eventually I came across a luthier's forum which had a megathread on the BF system. While there were a very few posts that said they thought it sounded better, the predominant theme was that it sounded no better, or even sounded worse, than a standard intonated fretboard.

So, given the difficulties in intonating/tuning it properly, then factoring in that almost every other bass or guitar has a standard tuning system ....I concluded it wasn't worth the aggravation.

Could a bass or guitar with the BF setup be converted back to normal? Probably would require a new fingerboard since the fret slots are cut in a different spot....

 

[Jonathan Starr]

It seems to me that more thinking and analysis is going on here than is really necessary.

And that Peterson has somehow blown it in terms of making the Strobostomp useful for BF.

I suggest you get a DT-7 and the whole thing will become very easy.

You tune the strings in normal fashion with ANY 440hz tuner (or the DT-7 in straight mode), set the DT-7 on BF 12 fret and then adjust the bridge saddles to intonate properly.

Go back & forth a couple of times.

Put the DT-7 back in the drawer till you change string types.

Please don't blame the BF system or Mike T because Peterson screwed up their implementation.

Aloha,

Jonathan

 

[Vic]

I suggest you get a DT-7 and the whole thing will become very easy.

You tune the strings in normal fashion with ANY 440hz tuner (or the DT-7 in straight mode), set the DT-7 on BF 12 fret and then adjust the bridge saddles to intonate properly.

Go back & forth a couple of times.

Put the DT-7 back in the drawer till you change string types.

Please don't blame the BF system or Mike T because Peterson screwed up their implementation.

Aloha,

Jonathan

+1 My 535 is perfect, and setting it up was easy as pie, but I also have the DT-7. Guess I never realized how sucky it'd be if I didn't.

 

[.matthew e wengerd.]

FWIW:

a few months ago I was about to buy an acoustic-electric bass, until I saw it had the BF setup. I had no experience with it and had no opinion on it, so naturally I Googled it....it took hours to sort through various sites, but eventually I came across a luthier's forum which had a megathread on the BF system. While there were a very few posts that said they thought it sounded better, the predominant theme was that it sounded no better, or even sounded worse, than a standard intonated fretboard.

So, given the difficulties in intonating/tuning it properly, then factoring in that almost every other bass or guitar has a standard tuning system ....I concluded it wasn't worth the aggravation.

Could a bass or guitar with the BF setup be converted back to normal? Probably would require a new fingerboard since the fret slots are cut in a different spot....

The frets are right where they belong. Tha's why a retrofit is really just a new nut and a setup.

 

[steveksux]

I suggest you get a DT-7 and the whole thing will become very easy

Hmmm.. I suggest you borrow a DT-7 to setup the intonation, when done, measure the 12 fret with both tuners and adjust the Peterson to match, or write down the offsets.

All you need is a friend with a DT-7.

Randy

 

[nashvillebill]

The frets are right where they belong. Tha's why a retrofit is really just a new nut and a setup.

That's it ? The nut is just located a tad closer to the first fret with the BF? Pffft....

 

[Vic]

That's it ? The nut is just located a tad closer to the first fret with the BF? Pffft....

Actually, it's a bit more than that on a MTD, and there's info on it up at either the BF site or the MTD site or both.

Normally, the BF system uses a compensating nut (jaggy on the fingerboard side) as well as a first fret offset.

The MTD uses a "zero fret" so the "nut" is really nothing more than a string guide. However, the offset is still there, so you still have to intonate according to BF offsets.

Regardless, if you use a DT-7, it's easy. The BF site also tells how to do it with a regular tuner, but I've never tried it.

 

[takk]

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Have anybody heard about this fret system?
This is not BF system but sounds like it gives similar result.
Fujigen is known as manufacture for Ibanez, as you know.

 

[rojo412]

Not that I know much about BF, but I do think one technique mentioned would work okay...

Try using the 24th fret as the intonation point instead of the 12th. If the open note and the 24th are in tune, BAM! Should be okay.
If not, maybe it's the fret crown throwing it off. May want to have a look to see if they look good (though this theory may just be hooey, so don't quote me).
Last, but not least, if all else fails, send it to Michael. I mean, it's a freaking $5000 bass, he most likely would be thrilled to back it up. If not, he could point you in the right direction. I would imagine he wouldn't care if you bought it used, either. I mean, I have heard stories of Roger Sadowsky backing his products, no matter what. Figure anyone who makes a multi-thou bass would help the people who worship their products so.

Or I could trade you my Status, no problems with intonation on that

 

[LeonD]

I recently purchased a second hand 635. Once I received it, I stopped by Mike's shop for a set up.

He told me that it should be tuned using a regular tuner and the only difference BF makes is when setting the intonation. He did comment that even when set up correctly, the lower strings above the 12th fret are still a little off.

Mike also sent me an e-mail with the steps to setting the intonation myself. I've pasted his instructions below.

I hope this helps,
LeonD


I use a Peterson VS-II or a regular strobe….not familiar with using a sabine. The Korg DT7 has the offsets burned into the chip for intonation. But if you have a tuner that will adjust 1 cent up or down you can do the following:

When I string a bass with new strings, I usually stretch them for a bit before doing BFTS intonation…..play for about ½ hour or put them on and leave them overnight. Make sure the neck is set like you want and that the action is also. Tune the bass to pitch using the tuner.

Match the
C string open at pitch against the C at the 12th fret 1 cent flat
G string open at pitch against the G at the 12th fret 1 cent flat
D string open at pitch against the D at the 12th fret 1 cent flat
A string open at pitch against the A at the 12th fret 1 cent sharp
E string open at pitch against the B at the 7th fret 1 cent sharp
B string open at pitch against the F# at the 7th fret 1 cent sharp

If the note is sharp, that means the saddle is too close to the 12th fret, if it is flat then it is too far away. If you cannot adjust the sabine 1 cent up or down you probably cannot set the intonation. If the strings are old, then you probably should change them and get the bass set up before doing intonation.

 

[secretdonkey]

He did comment that even when set up correctly, the lower strings above the 12th fret are still a little off.

Well, this may explain everything. That's exactly what I noticed. I do understand that tuning temperments are always a compromise. Since I could detect "problems" only when playing things I don't actually play that often (octaves above the 12th fret, for instance), I likely had the instrument set up correctly and didn't realize that the issues I encountered were normal. Interesting...

 

[Vic]

He did comment that even when set up correctly, the lower strings above the 12th fret are still a little off.

Well, this may explain everything. That's exactly what I noticed. I do understand that tuning temperments are always a compromise. Since I could detect "problems" only when playing things I don't actually play that often (octaves above the 12th fret, for instance), I likely had the instrument set up correctly and didn't realize that the issues I encountered were normal. Interesting...

I wonder if this is related to the fact that, due to the zero fret design, he can't use a "compensating nut", or if it's just the nature of any BF system.

 

[pilotjones]

I wonder if this is related to the fact that, due to the zero fret design, he can't use a "compensating nut", or if it's just the nature of any BF system.

That's the focus of my issues with the system. My understanding of the system - which may be wrong - is that you are moving up the nut to compensate for the fact that it is cut higher than a fret at the zero position would have been. If this is correct, then using a zero fret not only changes the intention of the design, it makes the whole system unnecessary.

Another part of the system, as far as I can tell from the patent, is the practice of tuning the harmonics of the lower strings (on a guitar) to the upper strings, resulting in a stretch tuning. This part can be done on any bass, BTFS or not, and without any special tuner.

 

[Jerry J]

I'm with Jonathan here:

I just broke down and bought the DT-7 when I had my 535. It was cake and certainly not nuke science. I felt that buying the tuner was cheaper than a trip to some repair guy.

I'm not sure that the Feiten system is the be all to end all but I felt that if someone of Mr. Tobias' level felt strong enough to commit to it then there must be something to it.

I've always understood that fretted instruments are always a compromise when it comes to intonation.

It seems to me that more thinking and analysis is going on here than is really necessary.

And that Peterson has somehow blown it in terms of making the Strobostomp useful for BF.

I suggest you get a DT-7 and the whole thing will become very easy.

You tune the strings in normal fashion with ANY 440hz tuner (or the DT-7 in straight mode), set the DT-7 on BF 12 fret and then adjust the bridge saddles to intonate properly.

Go back & forth a couple of times.

Put the DT-7 back in the drawer till you change string types.

Please don't blame the BF system or Mike T because Peterson screwed up their implementation.

Aloha,

Jonathan

 

[DigthemLows]

just take out the frets, then you wont need to worry............jk..........I had an old G&L that wouldn't intonate, it was a pain...................

 

[Vic]

I just played my 535 last night, and maybe it's me, but my intonation seemed very good. In other words, I don't seem to be having any noticeable issues with the system despite the lack of a compensating nut. FWIW, anyway...

 

[Vic]

I just broke down and bought the DT-7 when I had my 535. It was cake and certainly not nuke science. I felt that buying the tuner was cheaper than a trip to some repair guy.

True, but I don't think that trip would be necessary anyway. Supposedly, you can intonate w/out a BF-aware tuner... you just have to do it a bit differently.

I know this thread was started by someone who had trouble making that work, but I'd imagine his problems were somewhat specific or this woulda' been a much bigger deal a long time ago with a lot more people.

I'm not sure that the Feiten system is the be all to end all but I felt that if someone of Mr. Tobias' level felt strong enough to commit to it then there must be something to it.

I've always understood that fretted instruments are always a compromise when it comes to intonation.

+1

 

[Groovecenter]

I have a question, wouldn't the feiten system push you out of tune with any guitarist or instrument that doesn't use it? Obviously all fretted instruments are a comprimise, but wouldn't this make it more of a difference? Is the difference so negligible that it won't make that much of a difference? In that case why even include it... not flaming or putting down at all, I just want to know.