Buzz Feiten Blues

[Moo]

I'm not sure that the Feiten system is the be all to end all but I felt that if someone of Mr. Tobias' level felt strong enough to commit to it then there must be something to it.

That's how associative marketing works The something could be income, Mike is probably my favorite builder but he is also a businessman.

The compensating nut theory seems credible the first time you see it but it's anything but new and many companies have come and gone promoting the same concept. Also I have tried a few times at NAMM to get the BF people to tell me any tangible reason why this works and the best I got was it just does and maybe I just can't tell the difference. Well I'd argue no one can tell the difference in a bass intonated 1 cent from standard unless you tell them what you want ahead of time.

Again I would suggest (to anyone listening to my rant) intonating your bass from it's highest fret, the 12th was a standard because of the volume of the harmonic and was the tradition before digital tuners. If you intonate to the highest fret and have anything weird happening in the middle you have a bad fret.

For reference there are 200 cents between C & D in equal temperament and a minor third is considered 16 cents flat and a major third 14 cents sharp.

Here's another magic nut that also increases sustain

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[Jerry J]

My point was that Mike Tobias obviously is a very extremely talented luthier and and has been at the top of the business for many years. I really don't think that he would be duped by "snakeoil" claims. And Tobias basses hardly require tall claims and gimmickry to sell basses and gain respect. I feel that he didn't recognize that the BF system was without merit that he would have jetisoned it a long time ago. I just wonder what MT has to pay for the licensing of the system.

Now whether I place much creedence in the value of is questionable. But Secretdonkey's anguish prompted my reply that I found that the DT-7 sure made dealing with it a breeze.

 

[Bassist4Life]

B.F.= Snakeoil........IMHO. There were lots of great albums and players that seemed to be in tune long before this system was invented. YMMV
Corey

Rock City Guitars,

Some time ago I emailed MT about the BFTS and this is what he said:

"If you ever play with a piano and find yourself out of tune or constantly having to change tunings when recording in a different key this system definitely helps. There are too many studio musicians using it to ignore."

Just thought I'd share this.
Joe

 

[Bassmanbob]

I'm also with Jonathan. How much did you spend on that MTD? And you don't want to buy the tuner that the builder recommends? That's like buying a Rolls Royce and putting regular unleaded in it. It just doesn't make scence. Please understand I'm not trying to make you mad, quite the contrary. Just sit back and look at it from a more simplistic view.

If you want to get frustrated with anyone, it should be the salesman who told you to get the expensive tuner. Get the right tuner, tune it up and go back to enjoying that wonderful instrument you have. MTD's are in that class of basses that can be considered "The best basses made" category (of course depending on one's tastes). I don't have any, but they were in the top three when I bought one of my high end basses.

 

[Christopher]

I have a question, wouldn't the feiten system push you out of tune with any guitarist or instrument that doesn't use it? Obviously all fretted instruments are a comprimise, but wouldn't this make it more of a difference? Is the difference so negligible that it won't make that much of a difference? In that case why even include it... not flaming or putting down at all, I just want to know.

I think the primary benefit is to make the instrument sound more in tune with itself than with other instrument. I play guitar and definitely can get wince-worthy chords above the 12th fret on an otherwise "perfectly intonated" instrument, so I can see the value of the BFTS (or other altered intonation systems). Yes, it's a subtle modification, but it has value.

 

[Moo]

Is the guitar intonated by comparing the open note to the 12th fret? If your chords are going out of tune above the 12th fret and it's not due to the way they are being fingered then it should be easy to use a tuner to see which strings are going out of tune above the 12th fret. If they are going out of tune then it's not perfectly intonated in the first place. IMO.

 

[Vic]

Is the guitar intonated by comparing the open note to the 12th fret? If your chords are going out of tune above the 12th fret and it's not due to the way they are being fingered then it should be easy to use a tuner to see which strings are going out of tune above the 12th fret. If they are going out of tune then it's not perfectly intonated in the first place. IMO.

IMHO, I think the point is being made that it CAN'T be perfectly intonated, which is why something always has to be "out" at least somewhat, and you have to find an acceptible median.

I'm pretty sure that you couldn't possibly intonate perfectly unless you not only had a compensating bridge, but also a nut, AND every single fret (yes, jaggy and maybe fanned frets), AND all those offsets would have to be adjustable based on string type (guage/material/construction).

For example, with the G string and D string intonated as well as it can be, play a Gb (11th fret) on the G string and an open D (major 10th). To get it "perfect" you have to detune the G string (I think flat) some to lose the warble. I think on some other intervals, you have to go sharp, as well. I believe another poster mentioned this... or, don't take my word for it, talk to a piano tuner. It ain't simple and straightforward.

In short, all fretted stringed instruments are "approximated" in their intonation to keep construction and playability reasonable, with the practical goal being "acceptible to the human ear by itself and with other instruments."

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the BF system makes it all perfect, but I do think it improves things a bit.

The bottom line?: Play fretless.

 

[Vic]

Unless they use the BF system.

Yeah, then they're only out of tune sometimes instead of all the time.

 

[Moo]

IMHO, I think the point is being made that it CAN'T be perfectly intonated, which is why something always has to be "out" at least somewhat, and you have to find an acceptible median.

I'm pretty sure that you couldn't possibly intonate perfectly unless you not only had a compensating bridge, but also a nut, AND every single fret (yes, jaggy and maybe fanned frets), AND all those offsets would have to be adjustable based on string type (guage/material/construction).

For example, with the G string and D string intonated as well as it can be, play a Gb (11th fret) on the G string and an open D (major 10th). To get it "perfect" you have to detune the G string (I think flat) some to lose the warble. I think on some other intervals, you have to go sharp, as well. I believe another poster mentioned this... or, don't take my word for it, talk to a piano tuner. It ain't simple and straightforward.

In short, all fretted stringed instruments are "approximated" in their intonation to keep construction and playability reasonable, with the practical goal being "acceptible to the human ear by itself and with other instruments."

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the BF system makes it all perfect, but I do think it improves things a bit.

The bottom line?: Play fretless.

Hi Vics, good points but I'm going to try and shoot them down if you don't mind. (I'm glad no one is talking any offense here as I'm certainly not intending any).

I believe the problem you describe is just a problem with equal temperament being made obvious in the thirds, or tenths as it where. To compensate to remove the beating or warble you have to adjust the equal tempering to favor a certain key. This is easy to do and a piano tuner can do this for you but if you alter that G & D to favor one key it makes it worse in some other keys. Simply demonstrating a problem with equal tempering and then saying BF somehow fixes that is not that convincing.

I have tried a few times to get the BF people to tell me what exactly changes or improves and I just get answers that are vague and untestable. That and my experience with other companies making the same claims makes me think this is much like the Tara Labs cables which also have some high level endorsers like Gary Willis but are still bunk based on any scientific testing.

Can any one tell me a specific note on a particular string that changes with BF and in what way. And what the benefit of that particular change is? I would suggest that if a specific example of what improves and how is not known then any claims of improvement are just wishful thinking and aggressive marketing.

Again, I hope no one takes any personal offense as I can see how these arguments can be taken that way.

 

[Th9nker]

I've never owned a tuner...

Just use my ear and harmonics...

when I was taking classical lessons on the stand-up and playing in orchestras, they just weren't around...

Back to basics, I still like to keep things simple...

 

[Bassist4Life]

Here is some more info I found:

"After carefully studying the system and obtain the input of noted players such as Jimmy Haslip and Jerry Watts, MTD concluded the system results in significant improvements in overall tone and voicing, especially noticeable when working with keyboards and horns."

http://www.pro-music-news.com/html/03/e00609mt.htm



Here is some previous information that I posted:

Some time ago I emailed MT about the BFTS and this is what he said:

"If you ever play with a piano and find yourself out of tune or constantly having to change tunings when recording in a different key this system definitely helps. There are too many studio musicians using it to ignore."


From these sources I am concluding that the BFTS is most helpful when playing with others (at least that's what I'm getting from it). Any thoughts?

Joe

 

[steveksux]

I know piano tuners don't just tune to the equal tempered scale, they fudge some notes to eliminate beats and whatnot. I'm assuming BF tries to mimic that somewhat. Its not going to be perfect either, though.

That may be the secret, since pianos are tuned "funny", BF makes more sense if you play with pianos a lot.

But if you play with non-BF guitars, and you use BF, you wouldn't match well, you might be more "in tune" with yourself, but that would have to put you more out of tune with a non BF guitar.

Randy

 

[pistoleroace]

I have the BF system on my Suhr J Bass and I really do notice more consitancy in the intonation department. I'm glad it's on that bass and wish I did on a couple of my others too.

For those that are not familiar with John Suhr, he is the Michael Tobias of the guitar world. Suhr also makes the best J Bass on the market IMO. Like Michael, he doesn't need a gimmick to sell he instruments, so there must be something he sees in the BF system to make it worthy to be in his instruments.

 

[Vic]

Hi Vics, good points but I'm going to try and shoot them down if you don't mind. (I'm glad no one is talking any offense here as I'm certainly not intending any).

Fire away, but I think we actually mostly agree, because...

...To compensate to remove the beating or warble you have to adjust the equal tempering to favor a certain key

Right, but I think this is only because the frets are spaced "graduatedly evenly", but the notes really aren't (so to speak)

Simply demonstrating a problem with equal tempering and then saying BF somehow fixes that is not that convincing.

Actually, I didn't mean to say the BF system "fixes" it, but more to just say it "helps".

I do still think my description of the "perfect" fretted instrument stands, however, but is clearly impractical to build or play.

If you agree with that much, then all I'm really trying to say is different ideas are being implemented to help offset that, but I don't believe anything can totally "fix" it.

Further, IMHO, the effect of the BF system is subtle, so really, whether it's "snake oil" or not depends on how much you say it can do. Personally, I find it to have a nice effect.

Then again, maybe my ears decieve me and I just bought a pint of oil, thank you very much.

 

[Moo]

Well there's definitely more than a few people that are happy with it but I'm still bothered by the just seems better quality of the testimonials. If I was to tune a piano to play better in the key of C I could tell you exactly which notes to change and how much to offset them. I've yet to hear any such specifics for BF, which also claims to work in all keys which seems to be a self contradicting claim. Anything that makes one chord more in tune with itself will also make other chords more out of tune.

I'm also aware that if I took anyone's bass away for an hour and then brought it back asking if they are sensitive enough to hear the improvements I've just made to the intonation almost everyone will hear them, whether I did anything or not.

It should be obvious by now I'm quite skeptical by nature so if anyone has any details of the BF system that aren't just claims of great results I'd love to hear them.

 

[pilotjones]

Boy, the waters do get muddy, don't they? There are a few issues that sometimes get confused with each other, and I'll try to sort them out here to the best of my understanding. (And if I'm not quite right about anything here, please correct me.)

>>>On one hand is the issue of equal temperament vs. just temperament, Pythagorean temperament, etc.
- Temperament refers to the choice of where each semitone should be (with respect to the base key pitch and its octaves). "Just intonation" is more properly referred to as "just temperament."
- All modern western fretted instruments are laid out for TTET (twelve tone equal temperament).
- TTET is equally "off", and equally "on", in all keys; there is some warble on some intervals, but it is equally good, or bad, for any key. That is why it is used in modern music. It is based on a simple mathematical formula, which makes each of the twelve semitones exactly equal, and exactly 1/12 of an octave.
- Just and other temperaments are tuned for a specific key. They are generally based on a harmonic series. They are better than TTET for the given key, and they are not bad for the closest keys in the circle of fifths; but the farther from the chosen key you get, the more hideous they sound. (I've done this- if you play in the key of Ab on an instrument tuned to Just Tempered C, it doesn't even sound like it's tuned. It's painful.)
- - I never got from any BTFS literature that they were trying to do anything other than TTET. Doing so on a fretted instrument requires not only shifting the standard positions of the frets, but shifting them differently for each string. So, an instrument with just intonation would need wiggly frets, and would not play well except in one key.

>>>Then there is the issue of stretch tuning versus regular non-stretch tuning.
- Stretch tuning is done because in the vibration of a real (as opposed to theoretically ideal) string, the string's own upper harmonics are not perfectly in tune with its fundamental-- they are sharp. Because of this, a widening of the octaves is done, to be slightly wider than a perfect octave. So, for example, if middle C is taken as the tonal center, then since the second harmonic of low C (which coincides with middle C) is slightly sharp; so the low C gets tuned slightly flat; this causes the low C second harmonic to be perfectly in tune with the fundamental of the middle C. As this process continues, the bass gets progressively flatter, and the treble notes progressively sharper.
- Stretch tuning can be done with TTET or with any other temperament.
- Stretch tuning is done on pianos because, since they are string instruments that cover such a wide range, they would be out of tune with themselves if they were simply tuned to an ideal set of frequencies.
- The amount of stretch used varies from piano to piano because, depending on the length, gauge, and tension of the strings, there is more or less inharmonicity of the overtones of each string. Larger grands, with their longer, higher-tension strings, have less inharmonicity in each string, and so require the least stretch. Small spinets require the most stretch. Note- the same properties of inharmonicity apply to bass strings.
- - Looking at the BF patent, something like this is done. It describes tuning the B on a guitar IIRC, and then tuning the other strings, by fret or by harmonic, to that B. In this way, you induce a stretch tuning. Note: this can be done on any instrument, and it should sound good; it is not something unique to BFTS. The fact that it is mentioned in the patent does not by itself cause it therefore to be part of the patentable idea.

>>>Finally there is out-of-tuneness caused by the stretching of a string down to the fretboard in order to fret it.
- When pressing down a string to reach a fret, the string is stretched slightly. This causes its to go sharp.
- The standard way of compensating for this is to move the bridge saddle outwards from its ideal position and retune. This is the regular bridge saddle intonation compensation. The reason this works is that now the string is a slightly longer scale length than what the frets were placed for; conversely, the frets are somewhat shorter scale length than the actual compensated string; so, the frets would make the note a little flat, but the string stretch makes the notes sharp, and they approximately cancel out. It is not perfect, but is generally good enough.
- It is important, in the absence of a zero fret, to cut the nut as close to fret height as possible. If the nut is cut too high, there is extra stretch induced, and it is especially increased at the first few frets. This causes the first few frets to play sharp. This extra stretch is difficult or impossible to compensate for with the bridge saddle offset, without ruining the intonation of the higher frets.
- - To compensate for a high nut, one can do an offset of the nut position. This is part of the BFTS. The nut is moved toward the first fret. It is also done with Earvana and other compensated nuts. As far as I can tell, this shifting should not be done if you have a zero fret- it is unnecessary and just doesn't make sense.

 

[Vic]

To compensate for a high nut, one can do an offset of the nut position. This is part of the BFTS. The nut is moved toward the first fret. It is also done with Earvana and other compensated nuts. As far as I can tell, this shifting should not be done if you have a zero fret- it is unnecessary and just doesn't make sense.

Well, I would tend to assume Mike Tobias would not make his zero fret "too high", so I guess the obvious question is, since his basses DO have a zero fret, how is BF implemented on his basses if you're not supposed to move the first fret? I figured ALL the frets were shifted somehow as an "adjustment" to the TTETS, which is why it has to be intonated specially. I don't have time right now, but maybe the MTD site has more, tho I don't recall it last time I was there.

 

[pilotjones]

Well, I would tend to assume Mike Tobias would not make his zero fret "too high", so I guess the obvious question is, since his basses DO have a zero fret, how is BF implemented on his basses if you're not supposed to move the first fret?

Good question. I have no answer to this.

I figured ALL the frets were shifted somehow as an "adjustment" to the TTETS, which is why it has to be intonated specially.

The problems here would be twofold. First, if you leave TTET, you are optimizing for one key, at the expense of other keys. Second, you can't do this with straight (parallel or fanned) frets- for example, shifting the second fret to try to tune the F on the E string also shifts the Bb on the A string, and the Bb notes might need a different adjustment than the F notes. Et cetera. So, you really don't want to leave TTET.

I don't have time right now, but maybe the MTD site has more, tho I don't recall it last time I was there.