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BVV3000 INFINIUM Trial

#61
Bart Bolton said:
[...] from the very few units we have received relating to this issue, we have found it is likely a blown fuse.
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Fuses shouldn't just blow without some cause, no? So I'm pretty sure replacing the fuse and reshipping the amp isn't the right thing for yous guys to be doing :( .

I do understand that the poor quality of modern manufactured tubes is a problem with all tube amps these days :( . Maybe you can tell us a bit about what QC yous guys do on the tubes you use? And if you repair center retests all the output tubes to the original specs when a blown fuse is found? In particular I've never heard of anyone testing tubes for flashover voltage which would seem to me to be an obviously important thing to test for to avoid failures in the field...
 
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#66
B-string said:
I don't think I have ever seen a knock-off fuse blow under the "rating". I have seen end caps separate loosing connection and damage from the fuses not blowing at their rating?
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Even the cheapass Radio Shack fuses I bought over 2 decades ago for my Twin are still in use. The problem when the fuse blew? Not the fuse. Biasing circuit.
 
#67
B-string said:
I'm glad to see that someone realized a fuse is not a wear item. Fuses don't have a finite lifespan.
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I cheated, I'm an EE on alternate Tuesdays ;) . I do find it somewhat disturbing that Behringer has un-technical people posting about technical issues on the forums. Maybe they don't realize that the forums aren't just populated with folks that dropped out of high school to play guitar? LOL

OTOH I do own both a BVV3000 and a 1960 and am happy with them for what they are. I also have a bunch of other Behringer gear that's fine as long as you treat it as well as the higher priced brands. But I'm one of the crazy ones who doesn't gig stuff without covers, bags, or cases - whether it cost me $150 or $1500.
 
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#68
RoadRanger said:
I cheated, I'm an EE on alternate Tuesdays ;) . I do find it somewhat disturbing that Behringer has un-technical people posting about technical issues on the forums. Maybe they don't realize that the forums aren't just populated with folks that dropped out of high school to play guitar? LOL

OTOH I do own both a BVV3000 and a 1960 and am happy with them for what they are. I also have a bunch of other Behringer gear that's fine as long as you treat it as well as the higher priced brands. But I'm one of the crazy ones who doesn't gig stuff without covers, bags, or cases - whether it cost me $150 or $1500.
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I'm sure they don't realize the class of the great deal of folks here, not your "average" user board.
I have Behringer PA equipment but had a bass amp for a short while. It was given to me to offset a repair bill. The user had been using a "Monster waste of cash" bass cord. Oversized plug caused the input jack to be intermittent. I informed him and he said just keep it. It was a decent working piece, but a student from the local High School was on his third year playing and need a rig with little cash. We found him a cab and I just gave him the amp. Last I saw him was 5 years in and it was still going strong.
 
#69
In my case it's pretty clear.
Tube drew air, getter went white.
Such a tube death shouldn't, but could blow a fuse.
So I don't blame Bugera too much for this to happen.
You can clearly see the tiny hole in the bulb here:

20140713_115219.jpg


And the oxide dust from the getter mirror:

20140713_115238.jpg
 
#74
Dear All,


We have a BVV3000 Infinium on the bench now and are attempting to duplicate the issue. I will post pictures and update you all later this afternoon.


The Infinium Technology monitors, biases and if required shuts down individual tubes, but only in relation to the plate current parameters. If a tube has a filament short-circuit then an internal fuse must activate which is a regulatory safety requirement. Fuses themselves are safety-relevant parts and must be UL approved.


One customer here had a tube with a broken glass which potentially leads to filament fire. Defects of such nature are very serious and require fuse activation. The BVV3000 is a mature design and many thousands of amps are in the market with very few defects.


Tube amps by nature have a much higher failure than solid state amps as tubes are very fragile electro-mechanical parts. Transportation and rough handling often lead to defects of the internal tube structure and subsequent amp failures.


All our tubes are burned in for 48 hours and undergo multiple tests including vibration. Attached is a picture.



Hope this helps.


Bart BOLTON
Manager, CARE
MUSIC Group
[email protected]
1-702-800-8290 extension 5771

Link Removed
 
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#75
RoadRanger said:
I haven't actually looked at the tubes yet - do they really use JJ's?
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No, they use their own brand.
But as I had a Bugera tube lighting up its corresponding Infinium's LED after 2 years of usage and not knowing how the package was handled originally by the DHL guys I decided to swap out all tubes, pre and power, for JJs.
Hoping to get at least a little sound improvement I wasn't disappointed - while the amp sounds great OOTB, it still gained some more clarity overall.
 
#76
Bart Bolton said:
If a tube has a filament short-circuit then an internal fuse must activate which is a regulatory safety requirement. Fuses themselves are safety-relevant parts and must be UL approved.


One customer here had a tube with a broken glass which potentially leads to filament fire. Defects of such nature are very serious and require fuse activation.
Click to expand...

Thanks Bart for clarification!
So I understand that a tube that does not slowly go out of specs due to ageing but dies because of a mechanical defect and thus drawing air always means the need of service by a qualified technician.
As this is not really a very common issue with quality brand tubes I am more than happy to live with this small amount of risk.

All in all this amp that you guys have put out here is nothing less than fantastic!
Can't wait to get myself a Veyron BV1001T as a more portable alternative for smaller venues!
 
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#77
Having spent literally decades touring with Ampeg, Fender, and Music Man tube amps, and having never experienced a tube related amp failure, I'm hard pressed to take your statement "Tube amps by nature have a much higher failure than solid state amps as tubes are very fragile electro-mechanical parts. Transportation and rough handling often lead to defects of the internal tube structure and subsequent amp failures" as anything that matches my personal experience.
Tubes themselves, now, seem to be made to a lower standard than they used to be. So far; this has only resulted in one preamp tube failure for me, in the last 10 years or so. I've been using hybrid amps for that amount of time. Tube preamps, non-tube power sections.



Bart Bolton said:
Dear All,


We have a BVV3000 Infinium on the bench now and are attempting to duplicate the issue. I will post pictures and update you all later this afternoon.

Tube amps by nature have a much higher failure than solid state amps as tubes are very fragile electro-mechanical parts. Transportation and rough handling often lead to defects of the internal tube structure and subsequent amp failures.


All our tubes are burned in for 48 hours and undergo multiple tests including vibration. Attached is a picture.



Hope this helps.


Bart BOLTON
Manager, CARE
MUSIC Group
[email protected]
1-702-800-8290 extension 5771

Link Removed
Click to expand...
 
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#78
Bart Bolton said:
Dear All,


We have a BVV3000 Infinium on the bench now and are attempting to duplicate the issue. I will post pictures and update you all later this afternoon.


The Infinium Technology monitors, biases and if required shuts down individual tubes, but only in relation to the plate current parameters. If a tube has a filament short-circuit then an internal fuse must activate which is a regulatory safety requirement. Fuses themselves are safety-relevant parts and must be UL approved.


One customer here had a tube with a broken glass which potentially leads to filament fire. Defects of such nature are very serious and require fuse activation. The BVV3000 is a mature design and many thousands of amps are in the market with very few defects.


Tube amps by nature have a much higher failure than solid state amps as tubes are very fragile electro-mechanical parts. Transportation and rough handling often lead to defects of the internal tube structure and subsequent amp failures.


All our tubes are burned in for 48 hours and undergo multiple tests including vibration. Attached is a picture.



Hope this helps.


Bart BOLTON
Manager, CARE
MUSIC Group
[email protected]
1-702-800-8290 extension 5771

Link Removed
Click to expand...

It's great to see such honesty from a manufacturer. I know some posters will jump in with their anecdotal stories on long lived tubes, but I think an actual manufacturer, with racks of tubes under test would know real world numbers. In fact other tube amp manufacturers publish in their own manuals about their recommendations on changing tubes as they wear out but this is often attributed to the manufacturer wanting to sell more tubes.

Your own tests show that most catastrophic failures happen in the first few hours of use, but there is wear over time as pointed out decades ago in reliability charts

TubeFailureChart.jpg


This chart too is from actual data.
The left shows your above burn in testing for initial catastrophic failures, but sure enough over time tubes due wear still wear out.

The failure on the right may not be catastrophic, instead it may be tube going out of spec.
I believe a lot of the confusion is that a tube may pass a signal after it's outside of spec, and users probably interpret this as "still working". Many then get an extra surprise when they do a retube like Lindex did. Infinium helps users like Lindex retain the value of their retube longer than another amp.

Infinium may let people use output tubes for a longer period as it can constantly correct bias, but it doesn't do anything for pre-amp tubes does it?

I would hope that if "Infinium" is able to increase tube life, then Bugera Brand tubes in Bugera gear could be give the longer than customary 90 day warranty. Just some food for thought. It would help improve the reputation with a longer warranty.

Looking forward to the results of your possible duplication of the original problem. At least maybe next time the purchaser or retailer will contact you before it gets lost the shuffle.
 
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#80
Pretty sure EL34B and 12AX7 are rebrand Shuguangs/from the Shuguang factory. Shuguangs are my go to modern valves for working fine is old British amps that tend to brutalise valves with high voltages.

Cracked valve getting air in is definitely something that should blow a fuse, manipulating the bias can't help that sort of thing. The valve failures in Infinium amps I've seen (one of my own and a few people messaging for help with their amp) have been pre valves. I pulled the set of valves from my 1960 infinium, and checked them, seemed to be a matched set, jammed in randoms I had laying about, still worked happy, that was my test of it working.
 
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