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Cab farting / rig setup questions

but I still need the beefy low end.......

No offense to the OP, but I read this over and over again. I want a cab with lots of low end....massive low end....huge low end......etc., etc. Of course, we're bassists! Anyone here ever ask for a cab with weak low end? Anemic low end? Haven't come across a post about that request yet.

But terms like beefy, massive, lots of, etc., are not real terms that can be measured. They're generalities. And too much low end, whatever that is, can wreck everything if you don't know what you're doing.

* Just get a good cab, learn how to use your head, and don't crank the bass up all the way.

* Cheap ass cabs will give you cheap ass sound.

* Placing a cab within 2~8 feet of a wall or corner will cause boundary cancellation and you will wonder why you can't hear the low frequencies.

* And if you down tune or play extend range, and feel you really need strong fundamental content below approx 45Hz, it will cost you $$.
 
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Not exactly true.
Rules for Subwoofer placement and stacking - BillFitzmaurice.info

BFM has a great primer on wall and corner loading a bass cab to aid in sensitivity gains, especially in terms of the fundamentals the OP is seeking.

As stated in BFM link,
If there is a 'prime directive' when it comes to sub placement it is this: Never place subs with their radiating planes between 2.5 feet and 8 feet of a boundary.If you do at some frequency the within the 35 to 100 Hz passband, depending on the distance, the reflected wave will be 180 degrees out of phase when it meets the original wave again, cancelling it out.

So I wrote 2' instead of 2.5'. My error.
 
Ok well then I've got alot to try here. Thanks everyone. Just for theoretical sake, if I make adjusments and get rid of the farting but still feel I need some more lows, would the next step be to experiment with switching to larger speakers or adding a second 4x10 cab?
 
Larger speakers don't equal lower frequency response, per se. If you like the tone of the cab you have, get a second one. If you don't like it, find one you do like and get it--or a pair of them.

There's a lot of love in these forums for greenboy-designed "fear" cabs, either ones you make yourself (fearful) or ones that you buy from an authorized builder (fearful or fearless). They have a "supercab" reputation for being very loud, very full frequency and also very light. They're just not cheap.
 
@GMC, Andy Lewis would strenuously object with your statement, and he has very good reasoning. Fundamentals actually are important, but due to the fact that we have to use a much higher amount of power to properly represent those lower frequencies, and because they are also fairly difficult to control at times, most people are fine to just go without them. I asked Andy why my LowB2 seemed to fart less when I was EQing out very specific frequencies with my GK BL600 (300 watts vs. the 500 recommended by Acme), but not with a 500 watt power amp.

I think I missed something here...who's Andy lewis? I've never heard of him in any of the educational material which I've read concerning speaker dynamics, acoustics or sound wave science. Are you telling me you actually want to be standing any where near a cab pushing out 120 db of 30hz? Good luck with that and lets see what that does to your biology. Btw...I've not seen any commercial 15" or 12" driver which handles 30hz particularly well. Most have an F3 rating, which is a 3db roll off and that's a double power effort to get that 3db back. I bet if you put a spectral analyzer in front of your rig at full chat, you wouldn't be seeing much in the 30-50hz range...but quite a lot in the 2nd harmonic. You need some in the fundamental...but not a lot, but that's ok because most of the cab lowest frequency ratings are fantasy figures anyhow.
Farting occurs with one of two circumstances,
1) when you are asking a cab to produce a strong signal, lower than it's resonance (Fs) allows with in the additional parameters of the cab design and the port. A lot of cabs are generic and cheap off the shelf PA drivers, stuffed into a randomly sized cabinet. If you go below that figure, clean signals can occur but at very low db efficiency and we can't hear much that low anyhow. Most people can't even perceive 20hz or 20Khz for that matter. This is why some subs use drivers with quite high Fs figures and then use a band pass so only the really low stuff goes to that driver.
2) when there is insufficient internal bracing and the cabinet itself starts to vibrate. This is at some obscure combination of frequency and power rating.

I've built several bass cabs myself and for friends, I get a clean, defined and articulate low B. In 15 years of using these cabs, no farting ever and I've put some serious db's out with my 2 main cabs. But I'm too smart to drop full gain into a maxxed out Trace Elliot SM400 head into my two 400w cabs without attenuating the sub 50Hz rage. Mine's been measured peaking at 127db....
 
OP, strong fundamentals, loud, clean rigs are available and can sound fantastic. However, what you have is too little and of the wrong kind. You could wither look into a pair of Ampeg SVT-410HLF (which will be loud, deep and still have a bit of Ampeg "round tone") or you could look into the "mini-PA" solution, with big amps and a more "HiFi-ish" tone, ie less coloration.
Both the Ampeg and the fEARful etc will get loud, deep and can take lots of power reliably.
In either case, calculate a solid 500-700W per 410 or 15".
 

Go look at this Acme Low B response curve of their propriety Eminence driver:
http://www.acmebass.com/pdf/Bass Gear Review 8-2012 (2).pdf
There's a rapid drop off from 50hz. At 30hz it's nearly a 7db drop. The frequency response isn't exactly flat either. Over 500Khz and it's wobbling all over the place...typical neo magnet mid spike too. 108db at 2Khz...that's quite a spike compared to it's 92db at 50hz. So if this cab was flat out, pushing say a 127db peak (unlikely), then at 50hz, you'd be seeing only 108 db. Which is what that spike is doing with only 1 watt. Your fundamentals will be hitting around 101 db. So your 350w would get the same 50hz spl as 1w would get you at 2Khz and your fundamentals would be matched by only 1/4 of a watt of power.
If I was using this driver, I would have a crossover quite low and pass the mids to a far less spiky driver. Which is what myself and Fearful do. Although I prefer soft dome mid units.

I'm not dissing your cab bud...I just think you've been told some marketing spin which you wanted to hear.
 
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+1 on the ACMEs as being very popular here for that type of application, althought I have no first hand experience.

I've got some experience. While I didn't love the end result for my sound, I understand why guys here like them. The do come off as being 'flatter' and going lower than most...but at the expense of sensitivity due to the combo of that tone profile and their size.

And yes, Andy knows an awful lot about speakers. Of course every speaker designer filters that knowledge through a design philosophy, which is where the giving ground is in terms of the trade offs and the end goals.
 
Bass is a curious instrument in that it's fundamental isn't as important as it's 1st harmonic (at twice the frequency). So a low B of 30 hz, it's first fundamental (and significantly stronger) is twice the frequency (60hz). The 2nd harmonic is at 120hz.

There are two key points I want to bring up about this. The first is semantics but it does matter. The 1st harmonic IS the fundamental (30Hz in your example). The 2nd harmonic is the 1st overtone (60Hz in this case). And so on.

The other point is that the importance of the fundamental vs the 1st overtone varies massively depending on the note you're playing and (to a lesser degree) on the style of music you're playing. When you play 7th fret A-string E that 82Hz fundamental is a huge part of the tone. Drop an octave lower and the 1st overtone becomes more important but the fundamental still has value.

One other thing - the measurements of that Acme cab are done in half-space. The only time you're playing in half-space is when you're outdoors in a field. Play indoors and you will get at least some boundary reinforcement and in smaller venues significant 'cabin gain' too in the lowest frequencies. Both those things will increase the lowest frequency sensitivity of the cab at the listener position.
 
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My guess is too much bass. I don't have the same head but I have the same cab. If I have my "deep" switch on, my bass is only at about 2 using that cab.

It may turn out that when you turn the bass know down you will realize that it may not even be lows that you are after. Maybe just low mids.
 
Wait, you have the low on "8"? That's zero-to-ten 8? Or do you mean eight o'clock? If it's zero-to-ten eight, that's part of your problem. Put the bass and treb at noon--straight up--and then turn off the "deep" switch. Then use your EQ to drop frequencies below 60hz. Make sure it's unity gain or just a hint louder than when it's off.

This. It's a reference to subtractive EQ, and it will serve you well.

Instead of running the "Low" and "High" controls as hot as you are, drop them both back to 5. Disengage all of your contour/color controls (Deep, Bright, and Mid Notch). Play these settings with the gain and volume where you already have them. It will probably sound lifeless and thin to you, but you will have just bought yourself a couple of really useful new toys. First, your cabinet will have ceased farting, and second, you will now have loads of headroom to play with. Open your gain and volume controls up somewhat, maybe 4-ish on the gain and whatever feels good on the master. You should now be able to do this without cab farts. You'll begin to hear a lot of your instrument's character coming through (largely contained in the low-mid frequency range), and this is where you make a critical change to your tone-shaping approach. Instead of boosting EQ in the ranges you want to hear more of, try cutting EQ in the ranges you want to hear less of (hence the term "subtractive EQ"). So on your Bassman head, set all graphic EQ sliders to zero (centered and flat), then push the button that engages the graphic EQ section. Cut the lowest frequencies (60Hz and lower) to some degree - as mentioned, you truly don't need or want them peaked out. With everything else left flat, play your bass and then tweak the tone only by cutting different frequencies. Don't boost any EQ slider above zero (center). All you're trying to achieve here is a desired sound - not balls. Once you've crafted a tone that seems about right for your stylistic purposes, you'll very likely find you still have headroom left in the gain and volume controls. You should find that you can drive your cabinet pretty hard without farts, and you should also have adequate low end, but I'd wager your overall tone will be vastly improved. At this point, you're getting the most out of your rig without pushing either the head or speakers past their limits.

It seems counter-intuitive that the sub bass range (call it 60Hz and lower) could be cut at all and still feel big. I had a hard time accepting this until I experienced a demonstration that proved it. This happened in a college course that dealt with the psychological and perceptual aspects of sound. The professor stated that our auditory systems reconstruct fundamental frequencies based on their overtone series, and that with the right overtones in place, we are basically wired to perceive fundamentals whether they are physically present or not. As a musician, I was skeptical. He then put on a recording that started off by sounding a 150Hz pure sinewave (no harmonic content). All of us in the class heard a 150Hz tone. Then, the second harmonic (300Hz) was added to the 150Hz fundamental. There was an ever so slight color change to the sound, but 150Hz was what we all still heard. Then the third harmonic was added (450Hz) and again, there was only the tiniest color change in the sound but what we all still heard was the original 150Hz. Finally, the 150Hz fundamental was entirely removed while the 300Hz and 450Hz sinewaves continued to sound. Yup - what we all still heard was the 150Hz fundamental, even though it wasn't there. There was a somewhat grittier timbre to the perceived pitch, and it did seem "thinner," but 150Hz was what we all believed we were hearing. And if the recording had gone on to boost the amplitudes of those two harmonics, our collective perception would simply have been a louder 150Hz.

So what was mentioned earlier in this thread about the importance of the second harmonic in re-creating the deepest bass notes is right on point. If you want to emphasize your 41Hz low "E" without trashing a speaker, the trick is not to boost 41Hz. The frequency that needs emphasis is 82Hz, also 123Hz if you want some more meat on the bone. But any EQ controls that are active on the 41Hz range should be used very sparingly, and the only thing you really want to adjust with them is the "body" of the lowest frequencies.

In summary, use tone controls for shaping tone instead of managing volume. Your ears, your rig, and your band will thank you.
 
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Alright thanks everyone. Will try dialing back bass and fiddling with the other suggestions and see what happens. If this is in fact the problem but I still need the beefy low end, what would be a good type of cabinet setup to get in place of the 4x10?

I play pretty fast and sometimes technical metal, but we do have slower parts so I like to have the low end while also maintaining top end clarity. I'd love to hear other suggestions as far as cab's / low end speakers go, especially if I am going to have to dial back the bass with this current setup. Throw your best ideas at me. I'd even be willing to do a custom cab if that's what it takes because I kind of need the chunky low end. I don't want things to sound brittle.

Nothing wrong with dialing back the bass! If you are running that cab-which is an awesome cab- that hard in terms of low end, it will probably sound like crap in the mix & your tone is probably too fat to cut through (if you want to cut through). What I like to do is cut the lowest lows, keep bass (80-100Hz) level, boost low mids (150-200Hz), and raise the master. This gives you around the loudest/most present kind of sound relative to your amp's power rating and tends to sit awesome in the mix. Cutting the lows while raising the master will get your low end back up while also pushing the mids and stuff that you need to cut through.

I've been using PH410's as my main cabs for almost 10 years (prog metal in B with a 5-string) with a ~300w Bass 400 generally cranked around the threshold of power tube breakup... never had any farts. ever.

If you need more volume just get a second cab and that will go a long way.
 
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