Cab prices - Big players vs Small

[DukeLeJeune]

Just for the record, I do not work out of my garage.

Technically, it's a carport.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Just for the record, I do not work out of my garage.

Technically, it's a carport.

Technically that is still overhead. I'll get my coat.

 

[basscooker]

My shop doubles as a dining room.

Just for the record, I do not work out of my garage.

Technically, it's a carport.

 

[agedhorse]

Note that my use of the term "garage" is slang for a small operation, one without commercial restrictions or limitations.

I was pointing out WHY there is often a difference between very small builders and larger builders, responding to that insinuation that larger builders by their very nature are ripping the player off (which is not true). I have worked for very small companies and I have worked for two of the largest companies in this industry as well as some in between.

In fact, there was a small builder that sold product here on TB back about 10 years ago and if I recall correctly, he ripped off a LOT of guys here by taking money and not delivering product. There's a sticky at the top of the forum about this.

 

[logdrum]

Big boys will have to follow more rules. as Andy from Mesa stated I am not saying the small companies are not following but since they are making just cabs, they do not fall into the same umbrella as an amp company as far as inspections goes. The big boys also offer transferable warranties. Better features - okaaay, but what about data on road worthiness. The big boys have that because they are backlined constantly and toured as well.

Sometimes features don't really mean much in the real world. For example microwave ovens. The consumer ones have so many features. But put that in a cafeteria with 1000+ employees and they will break in a week to a month. Buy a commercial model which has one knob but cost 2 - 3 times more compared to the one with 25X more features and it will still be working after 5 years, heating meals 48 weeks a year.

Having said that, if you really want to save money, buy a cab shell and load your own driver

 

[Passinwind]

My shop doubles as a dining room.

Mine doubles as my front deck.

And seriously, that's why I very rarely build cabs any more.

 

[seamonkey]

fEARful uses off the shelf drivers. Given that, there is no cabinet or boutique maker that could get any more out these drivers than the fEARful does. The box is designed around the drivers. Of course there are some trade offs, but I have not seen any better designs.

The big companies can work with speaker driver manufacturers and have custom drivers designed. They don't use off the shelf drivers. The big guys can design the driver and box together. In most cases the boutique makers can't buy the same drivers. Only the manufacturer who originally designed and ordered the drivers can buy them from the driver manufacturer. It costs more to design drivers and cabinets as one synergistic system.

It's not just bass gear, look at top of the line FOH gear also. Cost more, you can't buy the drivers yourself.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

Note that my use of the term "garage" is slang for a small operation...

Yeah I know, I was just having a little fun, and embracing my small-operation-ness rather than protesting that maybe in some ways I'm a big boy too.

I looked over your list of cabinet regulations (post #17), and the only one I don't do is use ROHS-compliant solder. My understanding is that lead isn't prohibited outright, just limited to concentrations of less than 1,000 parts per million. I'd have to use about eight times as much solder per cab as I do now to be in that ballpark, and I probably use more than most.

In fact, there was a small builder that sold product here on TB back about 10 years ago and if I recall correctly, he ripped off a LOT of guys here by taking money and not delivering product. There's a sticky at the top of the forum about this.

That sticky is a vivid warning to anyone contemplating turning their carport into a bass cab factory.

I understand that someone is taking a leap of faith when they offer me their business, and I think most of my fellow small cab manufacturers feel the same way.

One thing we don't offer is the implied assurance of longevity. Most little bass cab companies will not out-live their owner. Speaking of which, imo the way you take care of your old Genz Benz customers sets THE example for us all, big or small.

By the way, thanks for your post about the regulations applicable to amp builders (post #7). I've been resisting requests to offer "powered" bass cabs largely on the grounds that I'm not an amplifier technician and don't want to sell something that I can't fix, but now you've given me a far more compelling reason for resisting.

 

[agedhorse]

The RoHS issue is if you are shipping into any market that legislates this. I believe 1000ppm is no longer accurate, it's much lower, and it allowed to the raw solder material alone (component properties)

All of this regulation is the least enjoyable aspect of any industry

 

[DukeLeJeune]

The RoHS issue is if you are shipping into any market that legislates this. I believe 1000ppm is no longer accurate, it's much lower, and it allowed to the raw solder material alone (component properties).

Ugh. That is a lot worse than last time I looked into it.

 

[agedhorse]

Ugh. That is a lot worse than last time I looked into it.

RoHS is constantly evolving. Did I mention how un-enjoyable this part of the design and manufacturing is???

 

[fdeck]

I looked over your list of cabinet regulations (post #17), and the only one I don't do is use ROHS-compliant solder.

If this is due to bad experiences with the early generation lead-free solders, I suggest trying Kester K100 alloy, which is available in spools from Techni-Tool. There's nothing like soldering with good old PbSn, but K100 comes pretty darn close.

Speaking of which, imo the way you take care of your old Genz Benz customers sets THE example for us all, big or small.

Indeed, running my own garage shop, reading TB has provided a wealth of information about how bassists experience buying and using gear, both good and bad, along with a handful of role models.

I actually use my garage. All metal work is done out there, to keep metal chips out of the house. But it's not exactly an ideal workspace -- it holds pretty steady at 40 degrees F during the winter, and I have to navigate around about a dozen bikes. The main factory is a 2 x 4 foot workbench plus some shelves in the laundry room.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

If this is due to bad experiences with the early generation lead-free solders, I suggest trying Kester K100 alloy, which is available in spools from Techni-Tool. There's nothing like soldering with good old PbSn, but K100 comes pretty darn close.

I'll give it a shot. THANK YOU!!

 

[Marty Forrer]

Barefaced cannot be included in this list (it is listed in the first post) as they do not supply to retailers (except for one or two in the UK), they sell direct from the manufacturer. This must save a considerable % of the end cost as retailers have to make a living too.

 

[basscooker]

.....thanks for your post about the regulations applicable to amp builders (post #7). I've been resisting requests to offer "powered" bass cabs largely on the grounds that I'm not an amplifier technician and don't want to sell something that I can't fix, but now you've given me a far more compelling reason for resisting.

This.

 

[Interceptor]

Applebee's vs. Fat Fred's Big Butt BBQ. Two completely different sets of things that will bring them to failure.

Loss prevention at big chain is data security to food safety to loss of business continuity planning. At a little restaurant, it is figuring out what dish to make with that brisket that didn't sell yesterday.

Plus, things are selling again. It is not 2009 any longer.

 

[agedhorse]

By the way, thanks for your post about the regulations applicable to amp builders (post #7). I've been resisting requests to offer "powered" bass cabs largely on the grounds that I'm not an amplifier technician and don't want to sell something that I can't fix, but now you've given me a far more compelling reason for resisting.

After the end of Genz Benz, I had considered running my own small amp manufacturing operation (I have done so many years ago when things were simpler) and the regulations were imposing enough that even I was deterred from doing so... and I have the expertise, experience and contacts to be able to do it. The though of putting up $50-$100k to go through the exercise of safety and EMC certifying a couple of amplifier products was a significant turn-off, and doing this without approvals was a no-go because I know very well what the fines and penalties can be. Government fines, if not paid, will result in seizure of assets and will eventually follow you to your grave. FCC is aggressive and when they target an industry, they go in for the freekin' kill. I've been through an FCC audit before, they (and their lawyers) are intimidating and mean business. I passed with flying colors, but many don't, and the fines are huge.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

Government fines, if not paid, will result in seizure of assets and will eventually follow you to your grave. FCC is aggressive and when they target an industry, they go in for the freekin' kill. I've been through an FCC audit before, they (and their lawyers) are intimidating and mean business.

I hear you loud and clear.

[rant] I worked in another industry for many years. A government agency did something to our business that was illegal, but we did not have the money to fight it because their illegal action shut off most of our cash flow. I called our attorney soon as I got that fateful letter and following his advice closed the business that very day. And yes they followed me, though thanks to my attorney not to the grave. But maybe they actually did me a favor, because I like this industry a lot better.[/rant]

 

[Passinwind]

After the end of Genz Benz, I had considered running my own small amp manufacturing operation (I have done so many years ago when things were simpler) and the regulations were imposing enough that even I was deterred from doing so... and I have the expertise, experience and contacts to be able to do it. The though of putting up $50-$100k to go through the exercise of safety and EMC certifying a couple of amplifier products was a significant turn-off, and doing this without approvals was a no-go because I know very well what the fines and penalties can be. Government fines, if not paid, will result in seizure of assets and will eventually follow you to your grave. FCC is aggressive and when they target an industry, they go in for the freekin' kill. I've been through an FCC audit before, they (and their lawyers) are intimidating and mean business. I passed with flying colors, but many don't, and the fines are huge.

That's why I don't build amps for sale. In my last day job on the dams we worked to "nuke spec" and could often farm out critical work to those who genuinely understand and walk that walk every day. In the ones before that I would call in an electrician when it had to not only be to code, but signed of on as such. I just can't see rolling the dice with the FCC, guess who's using house money?