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cabinet frequency response
- Thread starter bearjew
- Start date
"Theater sound systems"? Heavy processed signals design to shock, jar or give the illusion of presence to moviegoers, that is what you site in relation to making music. A different experience and application to me anyway.
Don't some of the newer ones have buttkickers in the seats? That would be where the bottom octave is coming from I assume, for stuff like explosions, earthquakes, etc.
Yes some do or at least on that principal. EV made "in the old days" 30" drivers that were installed in theaters for the movie "Earthquake".
I don't understand the OP's intent. Who plays a gig where you need to reproduce 27.5 hz from your stage rig? Is it just to prove that you can? Because its functionally useless otherwise. No question that you can build a rig to do so, but you can also put a jet engine in your car, but I'd rather buy a Porsche. If the intent is to get better clarity and low down presence, put some dollars into bass lessons, a quality instrument, a professional rig and get to know the sound engineers that deliver your sound to the masses. That will make more difference in your "sound" than anything else.
No, he just thinks it would be neat and that it might be a big improvement. Most of us don't think so, but whatever.
Yes and no I believe. Again---it's not the low bass (properly implemented) that detracts from the quality of the bass sound in live settings.
Can someone get a completely functional sound with very little content below 60hz? Absolutely. As I said before--the "meat and potatoes" the bass content that we're asked to play---in any context---isn't really below that. I don't think that any of my favorite electric bass recordings have much content below that.
I think that the discussion here is---is it possible to add content of the fundamentals to any style of music without compromising the sound in the--- admittedly---more functional range regardless of whichever style. I think it can be. Again---when guys tell me "the B string sounds HUGE" ---that to me is a bad sign. It's more than likely a cab tuned in the 40's that is unloaded in the B string range. That's why guys with 15" cabs based on the 3015lf woofer say that their B string sounds bigger and cleaner with a HPF set at 40hz. What the HPF did was clean up the area where their woofer was unloaded. They're now getting a more focused 64 hz(?) first harmonic.
A strong response in the 30 to 40hz range is audible---but to me it's more of a physical sensation. Listen to that beginning of the Saint Saens (sp?) organ work on a stereo that will do 28hz. There's not a lot of overtones in that organ note. It's much more of a physical than audible sensation. Or when I was a kid I was really into a contemporary composer named Harry Partch. All of the instruments were home made. He had a contrabass marimba where the lowest note was around 30hz.. The resonant chamber for it was someting like 10 or 12 feet by 6 feet high--I don't remember. I remember hearing it on a speaker that would reproduce that low. It again wasn't dramatic in an audible sense--more a very cool physical presence.
Again--I was working on a speaker where we were getting a crazy low -3db point---high 30's I think. The designers changed something where it raised the -3db point about 6hz---all of a sudden we were getting much better bass impact. It is still a great -3db point and it's a worthwhile compromise for better bass quality.
So again---regardless of style---that bass extension should not change the quality of the bass above---if properly implemented, Problem is that there are some not-worthit compromises to implement that. Andy took a little hit in sensitivity to get in that territory---but IMO--lots of watts aren't heavy nor expensive these days---so--no big deal.
acmebass
Commercial User
It's the same idea as a studio monitor. That's all. I see the copying machine as a pretty appropriate analogy. Sweetness in, sweetness out, if you catch my drift.
I'm aware that some people, in the studio, use their bass guitar speaker, with a mike, to incorporate the characteristics of their speaker into their sound. But most don't, they run direct.
So, if you run direct in the studio, do you want to reproduce that sound onstage or not? That's pretty much it.
Thanks,
Andy
Not, thank you 
Actually I have to qualify that...I love to hear the sound of a mic'ed bass cab being run through a great PA or studio monitor, and with a few EQ tweaks such as cutting highs past 5k and the aforementioned HPF, I love the REDDI being run through a PA or studio monitor. Otherwise, not.
Actually I have to qualify that...I love to hear the sound of a mic'ed bass cab being run through a great PA or studio monitor, and with a few EQ tweaks such as cutting highs past 5k and the aforementioned HPF, I love the REDDI being run through a PA or studio monitor. Otherwise, not.
acmebass
Commercial User
Interesting, Mike.
In my experience, there's nothing quite like a true transmission line for reproducing clean, accurate, low bass. Unfortunately, a true transmission line is huge, and is also the least efficient type of loudspeaker imaginable. But boy oh boy- those things are unbelievable, if you're willing to tolerate their huge size and power requirements.
I actually had a set of genuine ESS Translinear systems in my living room last year, with genuine KEF B139 drivers. I loved them, I mean REALLY loved them.
In terms of most of what's on this thread, convoluted as it is, I think it's pretty clear that there are all kinds of people, with all kinds or requirements, all legitimate, and we would only hope that we can all be successful in finding equipment which makes us happy. I don't think I can't add much more to that!
Cheers,
Andy
acmebass
Commercial User
I think they still make that thing. I knew a guy up in Boulder some years back who got himself a pair, and put them in enclosures just barely big enough to fit them. The ended up with a cutoff frequency up around 100 Hz.
Oops. Back to the drawing board!
I think Hartley still makes their 24" woofer, too.
Thanks,
Andy
No, this is wrong. The Sensurround system was invented and developed by Cerwin Vega and Universal Studios for that movie and was a huge technological breakthrough.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensurround
The 18" transducer 189E was far ahead of anything Electro Voice or JBL had in their portfolio at the time. By that I mean that newer high performance woofers developed in that direction; higher Xmax, lower Qes and Qts, more robust suspension etc.
acmebass
Commercial User
acmebass
Commercial User
Actually, the 30" EV was from the 1950's. long before Cerwin Vega. It was featured in one of their versions of their "Patrician" system. There are a great many top quality woofers from Altec, JBL, IPC and Western Electric, to name a few, which preceded the Sensurround concept by decades, and which continue to perform well, and increase in value.
Even the JBL LE15, a relatively recent (40+ year old), massive 15" driver could easily be considered in that class.
Cerwin Vega is a baby compared to the old, iconic, and truly innovative companies which started all this.
Thanks,
Andy
Many recorded bass tracks are a blend. But beyond that most of my time is now with no FOH or my own FOH. What is heard "on stage" is not as important to me personally as how it translates out in front of the stage. It was a hard pill to swallow that the people paying the bills matter more than my own satisfaction on stage. A view I fully expect to be in the minority on
.University Sound was the last to offer that 60 watt 30" BTW. EV gave up when quality high power became available.
I am well aware of the 30" EV woofer (and I even know a bass player that used it in the 60s). It does not perform very well and share little with today's woofers.
The woofer of that era in general has much lower Xmax, higher Fs, higher Qes and Qts etc. This to make them efficient as the amps where very modest. The 189 E, like a more modern woofer sacrifices efficiency to get deep and loud with less distortion.
And Cerwin Vega is hardly a baby... Gene Cerwinsky founded the company in 1954 and among other things created the world's first solid state amplifier in 1957. He was an was originally an aerospace engineer after all...
The woofer of that era in general has much lower Xmax, higher Fs, higher Qes and Qts etc. This to make them efficient as the amps where very modest. The 189 E, like a more modern woofer sacrifices efficiency to get deep and loud with less distortion.
And Cerwin Vega is hardly a baby... Gene Cerwinsky founded the company in 1954 and among other things created the world's first solid state amplifier in 1957. He was an was originally an aerospace engineer after all...
I am not swayed by wikipedia as I lived through the install at a local theater. My best friend's parents owned a local theater and we were in awe of those massive EV's being installed. Cerwin was there for processing I also do remember.
Man--I heard Billy Cox with Hendrix and he was using those 30"ers! Not a lot of harmonic content above 300hz!
Andy---when I was 18 I built an IM Fried setup with transmission lines with the B139's and LS35A type satellites. Best bass ever!
I have to say that on electric bass--in the studio-- I always go for a mix of direct and mic'd speakers. I've gotten some of my favorite sounds with a combination of direct and an old Ampeg B15. You can get your low end extension and high end definition from the direct and the harmonic richness from the B15. On one session we put and SVT bottom cranked in another studio and mic'd---that was the sound appropriate for the session.
I tend to think that we're not just into sound reproduction but sound production to a degree. (a much smaller degree than guitarists which is why the cheap garbage speakers sound so good). Which is why certain tube amps that are anything but neutral work so well for some. I prefer a more hifi neutral type sound and use eq to suit my needs but there are many that use a 215 with K140's that get a killin' sound---for their needs.
Andy---when I was 18 I built an IM Fried setup with transmission lines with the B139's and LS35A type satellites. Best bass ever!
I have to say that on electric bass--in the studio-- I always go for a mix of direct and mic'd speakers. I've gotten some of my favorite sounds with a combination of direct and an old Ampeg B15. You can get your low end extension and high end definition from the direct and the harmonic richness from the B15. On one session we put and SVT bottom cranked in another studio and mic'd---that was the sound appropriate for the session.
I tend to think that we're not just into sound reproduction but sound production to a degree. (a much smaller degree than guitarists which is why the cheap garbage speakers sound so good). Which is why certain tube amps that are anything but neutral work so well for some. I prefer a more hifi neutral type sound and use eq to suit my needs but there are many that use a 215 with K140's that get a killin' sound---for their needs.
I agree. For a classic Fender bass sound a couple of JBL 15s kill (for me).
But using a more modern/hi-fi bass (like a Turner Renaissance) I've found a high definition 2 (or 3) way speaker system that gets the fundamentals well with appropriate amplification is the best way to get the most out of the instrument.
I'm not as wild about running that instrument though my JBLs nor the Fenders through the 2-way system. YMMV, IMHO, IME, etc.
