• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Cabinet Simulation on FRFR PA speakers- simplest method

poochiecheeks

poochiecheeks

Supporting Member
Feb 23, 2020
1,060
2,958
Central New Jersey
#1
Imagine-
Bass -> Preamp (pedal or rack) -> DI to mixer -> 2x 18" subs and 2x 15" top PA speakers
No sound guy/FOH

The preamp is intended to be used in front of an amp or power amp into a colored bass cabinet and not right to a PA. How do I make the balanced out from the preamp sound great in FRFR PA speakers?
Do I
-Cab sim pedal/unit
-Simple HPF/LPF
-Approximate a speaker response through some sort of soft EQ curve
-EQ out the harsh DI sound on the preamp
-Forget it and buy a sansamp
-Leave it alone as no one will notice anyway
-STFU and practice

What is the simplest method to make a straight DI sound good through PA speakers with no sound guy and a basic analog mixer? That's what I'm working with right now. If you send a straight DI signal to the PA wont it sound thin, middy and lifeless? Our guitar player used to send a marshall distortion pedal straight to the mixer and it sounded like a chorus of T8 florescent bulbs being smashed non stop throughout the gig.
Thoughts?
Thank you
 
#2
A good DI on a suitable preamp would sound good without much effort at all.

If your preamp is designed to be used with an amp and cabinet yet you aren't using an amp and cabinet, my first thought would be that you have the wrong preamp for what you are trying to do.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: FugaziBomb, Kevnn4, InhumanResource and 3 others
#3
For the ultimate cabsim: DSM Noisemaker OmniCabSim Deluxe : knobs and frequency response
Makes my uber HiFI speaker sound like the old school cabs that I like.
I run a Sansamp BDDI v2 first, followed by the DSM, for a bit of drive and additional tone shaping.
1757995685522.jpeg
 
  • Like
Reactions: poochiecheeks
#5
#7
Zbysek said:
Get a preamp which sounds good on its own...

Edit: it would be useful to know which specific preamp are speaking about...
Click to expand...
Right now its a T21 Q strip- I find I have to boost the bass and LP/cut treble to an excessive degree for it to sound full and not harsh. I have a V1 sansamp which I like but it is lacking in the mids for sure. Considering either the direct out of my fender rumble 350 head or a dedicated 1U rack preamp- just not sure how it would sound right to the pa like that.
 
#10
Who is running the mixer? What specific PA speakers are you using?

Edited to add:

"Our guitar player used to send a marshall distortion pedal straight to the mixer and it sounded like a chorus of T8 florescent bulbs being smashed non stop throughout the gig."

I know at least one guitarist who would probably like that sound. :woot:
 
Last edited:
  • Haha
Reactions: poochiecheeks
#11
poochiecheeks said:
Right now its a T21 Q strip- I find I have to boost the bass and LP/cut treble to an excessive degree for it to sound full and not harsh. I have a V1 sansamp which I like but it is lacking in the mids for sure. Considering either the direct out of my fender rumble 350 head or a dedicated 1U rack preamp- just not sure how it would sound right to the pa like that.
Click to expand...
You have two great tools at your disposal then.

Sansamp V1 is a classic. No need to get additional cab sim - the Sansamp circuitry already contains cab simulation. There are ways to get around the scooped mids: try either decreasing Blend or slightly attenuating Bass, Treble and Presence.

Qstrip is another great tool. If you find it sounding too harsh try engaging LPF and/or attenuating Highs and/or high mids (MID 2). Don't be afraid to turn the knobs-they are there to be used.

One warning though: don't judge your sound when playing solo. IME, what sounds harsh when soloed will sound nice in a mix. What sounds nice soloed gets lost in the mix.

I would advice against using the direct out on your rumble head.

Good luck!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Steve88 and poochiecheeks
#12
poochiecheeks said:
Right now its a T21 Q strip
Click to expand...
I have a QStrip as well, and it should work in virtually any situation, provided you know how to work with such a "surgical" parametric EQ. Sometimes you may even need to set it up in a somewhat "counterintuitive" way, e.g. by boosting the Low Shelf while enabling HPF and additionally cutting a specific unpleasant low band on the Mid1. Also, the Mid bands do overlap, and that's by design. Make sure to check the user manual PDF as well.
Zbysek said:
One warning though: don't judge your sound when playing solo. IME, what sounds harsh when soloed will sound nice in a mix. What sounds nice soloed gets lost in the mix.
Click to expand...
+1!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Steve88 and Zbysek
#16
I don't use a "cab sim" in my signal chain - all my gigs are ampless at this point, my amps sit on a shelf.....

A true cab sim simulates what the speaker in a bass amp does. Aside from some non-linearities, that means it's an eq.

A cab sim rolls off low end, like a speaker does. I don't want that - I play 5's, and the PA's that I play through are quite capable of reproducing the lowest fundamentals of one of my basses - there is no good reason in my situation to roll that stuff off in what I am sending to FOH. If the person at FOH wants to roll stuff off for any reason, fine - they hear what is going on in the room (I don't). Their job is to finesse that stuff, and sending a signal where you've already cut something out doesn't make sense - if they want to bring it back, that's tough to do - they have to guess what you have done, and try to undo that. Better to send them the whole truth, and let them cut something if it needs cutting.

That said, there is one thing you should do at low frequencies. If you look at what comes out of your bass when you pluck a string, there is a lot of infrasonic (below what you hear spectrally) information in that transient. In any reasonably designed bass amp or preamp, there is at least an infrasonic rolloff - that stuff can waste a lot of power in the PA, and even damage woofers if you don't deal with it. While a competent FOH person will always have some sort of filtering to do that, it's a good practice to take that stuff out of your signal before sending it to FOH - you're being a "good citizen" and cleaning up your own mess, not passing it off to FOH. My high pass is set at 17.5 Hz - low enough that it doesn't take away useful information, but it takes away the stuff that's a problem.

The other things a cab sim does are a rolloff and mid coloration. The rolloff is particularly necessary if you're using dirt (there is often a lot of "fizz" in a distorted signal), but it also takes away hiss from preceding electronics in the signal chain. A speaker naturally does this, but if you're ampless, you're also cabless, so it's a good thing to have in your chain.

Mid coloration is something I don't want to leave to a cab sim - I want to be able to dial that in myself - "my sound" is not some specific speaker, it's what's in my head, and to get that, I need control. Most amps (when set with the controls at mid positions, or even if you're "boosting mids" on the controls) actually are mid scooped - bass guitar is a mid heavy instrument, and I always have some (though not much) mid scoop going on - that's more an an "amp sim" thing, but as I don't have an amp.....

So, I don' t use a "cab sim", but I do everything that one does (except the non - linearities) in an eq pedal - a Source Audio Eq2 does all of that (and it's my tuner). The non - linearities? I have various overdrive pedals to do that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MartinB, LetItGrowTone, FretRiff and 3 others
#17
BaltBass5 said:
You shouldn't have ANY issue with getting a good FOH sound from a Bass into a DI into FOH.
Remember that there aren't a lot of FOH guys mic'ing bass cabinets these days. If they are, they are mildly blending in the mic'd cab with the DI. It always cracks me up how the bass playing world has been sold on Cab Sims.
Click to expand...
See thats what Im interested in. If a straight DI is going to work best I'll just do that
 
#18
poochiecheeks said:
Imagine-
Bass -> Preamp (pedal or rack) -> DI to mixer -> 2x 18" subs and 2x 15" top PA speakers
No sound guy/FOH

The preamp is intended to be used in front of an amp or power amp into a colored bass cabinet and not right to a PA. How do I make the balanced out from the preamp sound great in FRFR PA speakers?
Do I
-Cab sim pedal/unit
-Simple HPF/LPF
-Approximate a speaker response through some sort of soft EQ curve
-EQ out the harsh DI sound on the preamp
-Forget it and buy a sansamp
-Leave it alone as no one will notice anyway
-STFU and practice

What is the simplest method to make a straight DI sound good through PA speakers with no sound guy and a basic analog mixer? That's what I'm working with right now. If you send a straight DI signal to the PA wont it sound thin, middy and lifeless? Our guitar player used to send a marshall distortion pedal straight to the mixer and it sounded like a chorus of T8 florescent bulbs being smashed non stop throughout the gig.
Thoughts?
Thank you
Click to expand...
I haven’t found a cab sim that I like much for this scenario, but I appreciate the desire to find something more “normal” sounding in an ampless setup.

1. Your signal through a DI into the system should still sound pretty good on its own.

2. Less is more. For my situation, after a bunch of experimenting, I find an AMP sim and a “set and forget” 10 band EQ does the trick. I used to do compression but they’re adding compression at the board and that’s outside my lane, that don’t always sound good together so I dumped it. My goal is to provide the FOH with a good stable signal and not f with it.

I get a fair amount of compliments from sound guys so this seems to be working, and it sounds pretty sweet in my monitor so I’m not messing with it for a long time!
 
  • Like
Reactions: poochiecheeks

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back