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Cabinets : Front Ported vs. Sealed vs. Rear Ported

one of the ways you can mess up with rear porting is having a large port sitting literally right behind the driver. That's the only Bag End that seems to have this design. The others are smaller ports placed in more offset locations.

One of the mini cabs using neos has the port behind the driver as it uses the 'doughnut' on the back of the speaker along with the flare on the end of the port as part of the port path. The important bit is not having a direct path from the cone that allows midrange to go through the port.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong..... I've always heard (from my car audio days) that bass is only omnidirectional BELOW 50hz. Which basically means that you cannot tell where its coming from. It sounds like its coming from everywhere. BUT, as a bass player, the meat and potatoes of my sound is well above 50hz.... So, I've either been mis informed, or remembered incorrectly, or car audio sound is a completely different beast... But, I dunno... I'm sure someone will set me straight, lol.

Randy
 
I'm sure it has been discussed before but I can't find it....

So can anyone explain the science behind the three types of speaker cabinets?

How they are expected to sound different and how the cabinet accomplishes that?

Or else point me to any previous threads?

THANKS,

Want to be nice, but honestly, did you really search? "Ported" & "Port" turn up LOTS of info.
 
Want to be nice, but honestly, did you really search? "Ported" & "Port" turn up LOTS of info.

The OP posted this question 3+ years ago and it has resulted in an interesting discussion, so I'll give him a pass.

My Acmes all came with rear ports and they sound pretty durn good IMO. Same holds true for my LDS 8 X 8 which sports front ports. I did fashion and install grille inserts on the Acmes so the sparrows would quit building nests.

Riis
 
Correct me if I'm wrong..... I've always heard (from my car audio days) that bass is only omnidirectional BELOW 50hz. Which basically means that you cannot tell where its coming from. It sounds like its coming from everywhere. BUT, as a bass player, the meat and potatoes of my sound is well above 50hz.... So, I've either been mis informed, or remembered incorrectly, or car audio sound is a completely different beast... But, I dunno... I'm sure someone will set me straight, lol.

Randy


Okay, I shall correct you. The directivity of sound is a function of it's wavelength relative to its source. It can be omnidirectional at any frequency if the source (speaker/radiating surface) is small enough.
So there is no set frequency at which sound becomes directional as a rule. This is determined by the driver and baffle topologies. For example, a TL606 cabinet loaded with a 15" speaker will be completely omnidirectional up to 125hz and remain at or above to 180º (still very wide) up to about 300 hz.
 
ok, starting with this (somewhat dated quote from DukeLeJeune) I wanted to dig into the question of sealed and ported/vented cabs, and whether there is a reason to either combine them or avoid such combinations.

One issue that will arise is phase coherence. The phase angle of a ported cabinet will change as you approach the Fb​. So when you combine a ported box with a sealed box, they will be operating somewhat out of phase with each other over a range of frequencies. If they are stacked or placed in very close proximity, the cones will likely couple to some extent and alter each others response, as they attempt to operate as one unit. So the sealed box's driver may be slightly affected by the ports in the ported box, and vice versa. But as Bill said, the outcome would be very difficult to predict.
 
well, money is not the issue, it's more about all the logistical PITA that would have to happen to get 3 more cabs here (2 LF's and 1 HE), on top of the one 115HE I already have at my disposal, and then try them out in a reasonably realistic scenario like a gig, and not just a practice space.
And that's why doing so is the rare exception. But it's the only way to know which of the three possible combinations of any two cabs works best for you.
I've always heard (from my car audio days) that bass is only omnidirectional BELOW 50hz. Which basically means that you cannot tell where its coming from.
Never believe anything from car audio. :D
There are actually two issues here. As already noted the radiation pattern of a speaker is related to frequency; the average bass cab is actually omni-directional from about 300Hz on down. That's why you can hear lows standing behind your rig, but not mids and highs unless they're reflections off room boundaries.
Being able to directionally locate a source is a different matter entirely, and it's based on the distance between your ears. If the wavelength is too long for your left and right ears to hear it at two distinctly different angles of phase they can't triangulate the source direction. For most of us that frequency is about 100Hz.
 
And that's why doing so is the rare exception. But it's the only way to know which of the three possible combinations of any two cabs works best for you.

actually BFM, now that I have read the specs on these two cabs (I guess it does pay to check this stuff out), it just does not make much sense to consider mixing them. The LF (57Hz-3.7kHz) does not deliver anything more than the HE (50Hz - 17kHz) does in the low end. I'm guessing the LF would just sound somewhat "darker' due to the lack of tweet.

thanks
 
actually BFM, now that I have read the specs on these two cabs (I guess it does pay to check this stuff out), it just does not make much sense to consider mixing them. The LF (57Hz-3.7kHz) does not deliver anything more than the HE (50Hz - 17kHz) does in the low end. I'm guessing the LF would just sound somewhat "darker' due to the lack of tweet.

thanks
Actually, those are the -3db points of those cabs. The -10db points are 35hz for the PF115he, 32 hz for the PF115he. I have two PF115he's and they have noticeably more low end than my other Ampeg cabs. Why they quote the -3db figure and not -10db in their advertising for those cabs is beyond me, but the specs in their manuals give a more complete picture of the low end response.
 
Duke,
Regarding front / rear ports, I think the near field supposition is dead on.
With tiny stages and bass players standing inches from their cabinets, I believe that some do hear a difference from rear vs. front ported all things being equal.
While old wives tales do run rampant, one does have to pay some attention to the audio opinions of trusted professional players.
Bringing us to the question of balance between near field sound vs. what the audience hears.
 
Can anybody describe the rear ports on the Markbass 15" cabs? I'm curious as to size, type, location, etc. but can't find any pics.

Eric, my Traveler 151P cab has a slot port about 1-1/2" wide along the "bottom" (I say "bottom" due to how the badges are placed on the front), or that is, along one long side. There is also a single 3/4" divider in the middle for support. I think that's the norm for Markbass, although I haven't seen them all.
 
Bringing us to the question of balance between near field sound vs. what the audience hears.
Near field in this case refers to very close to the speaker, no more than a couple of feet away. Much more than that and there's no discernible difference between what you'll hear for bass output standing in front or in back of it based on port location. So unless the cab is practically right on top of the drummer any perception that he might have of the cab having too many lows based on the rear ports is the result not of what he's hearing but what he's seeing.
Where the audience is concerned the room has at least as much influence on what's being heard as the cab. Since every room is different the only way to know you've got the tone in the audience where you want it is to listen to it from there, and if you don't like what that does to the tone on stage just live with it. Or run the rig to your taste on stage, and go through the PA for the rest of the room.
 
Can anybody describe the rear ports on the Markbass 15" cabs? I'm curious as to size, type, location, etc. but can't find any pics.

Eric, my Traveler 151P cab has a slot port about 1-1/2" wide along the "bottom" (I say "bottom" due to how the badges are placed on the front), or that is, along one long side. There is also a single 3/4" divider in the middle for support. I think that's the norm for Markbass, although I haven't seen them all.
 
I thought I had my dream set up when I paired the rear ported Markbass "Randy Jackson" 15" and the rear ported Markbass Club210 (they fit perfectly together) it sounded great but I was in a studio setting. When I played it in clubs, where we set up against a back wood wall, which is common in clubs, it was very boomy and lacked clarity around the amp and was overwhelming for me and the drummer but when I walked about 10 - 15 feet in front of the band the clarity improved, all the boominess was not heard and nowhere near as much bass as I was hearing around the cabs.

I'm thinking that more of the lows where coming out the back port and bouncing off that back wall making it sound very bassy/boomy around the set up but I didn't find that much bass tone was making it out to the audience as other posters here have said it should. This happened in different settings but all with a back wall to which I was setting up against.

I talked to another bassest who has a Markbass rear ported 410s cab and he told me the story of when he set up in front of a garage door and dialed in his sound but when someone opened the door his sound changed.

I've concluded that rear ported cabs can be tricky as to where you set them up in a room or space. Other posters here have said that they should be set up at least 6' away from the back wall but that is not an option in most clubs.

Maybe my experience is different from others but I finally decided that it's important for me to be able to hear pretty close to what the audience is hearing and I want more bass tone out front so I'm going back to front ported cabs where I never had this uneven problem before.
 
I thought I had my dream set up when I paired the rear ported Markbass "Randy Jackson" 15" and the rear ported Markbass Club210 (they fit perfectly together) it sounded great but I was in a studio setting. When I played it in clubs, where we set up against a back wood wall, which is common in clubs, it was very boomy and lacked clarity around the amp and was overwhelming for me and the drummer but when I walked about 10 - 15 feet in front of the band the clarity improved, all the boominess was not heard and nowhere near as much bass as I was hearing around the cabs.

I'm thinking that more of the lows where coming out the back port and bouncing off that back wall making it sound very bassy/boomy around the set up but I didn't find that much bass tone was making it out to the audience as other posters here have said it should. This happened in different settings but all with a back wall to which I was setting up against.

I talked to another bassest who has a Markbass rear ported 410s cab and he told me the story of when he set up in front of a garage door and dialed in his sound but when someone opened the door his sound changed.

I've concluded that rear ported cabs can be tricky as to where you set them up in a room or space. Other posters here have said that they should be set up at least 6' away from the back wall but that is not an option in most clubs.

Maybe my experience is different from others but I finally decided that it's important for me to be able to hear pretty close to what the audience is hearing and I want more bass tone out front so I'm going back to front ported cabs where I never had this uneven problem before.

Wow, ancient thread. However, physics has not changed since the earlier posts:D. You are misattributing what you are hearing to port location. For example, if your friend had a front ported cab and the garage door opened, guess what, the tone and low end would have changed just as much.

Your 'boomy on stage but not out in the room' can and will happen regardless of port location in certain rooms and stage designs.

Also, a rear port only needs to be around 4-6 INCHES away from the wall, just so it is not plugged up.

That being said, you might like a given front ported cab more than a given rear ported cab, but it won't be because of the port location.:)
 
This may be an old thread, but this newbie just found it. I figure more of us will find it in the future so I will add to it. First, I am impressed with the high level of technical understanding I am reading in Bass Talk, and, just as important, the people who don't know are not too proud to admit they are here to learn. WELL DONE!!
To add my nickles worth, since there are no pennies in Canada I can't add a pennies worth. Sometimes the space around a speaker is defined as full space (a speaker hung from the Eiffel tower to exaggerate), half space ( a speaker surrounded by large flat surface), quarter space (a speaker at a floor/wall intersection) and so on. For these purposes I am referring to a bass speaker and the reproduction of its lowest octaves. When the garage door was closed, the radiation of the speaker went from a half space to a quarter space environment. Since the same amount of power was being radiated into the smaller air volume, the loudness of the bass tones would increase to the listener. A corner is 1/8 space, so now you know why speakers in a corner have a bass heavy sound, and yes there are other factors too. A little study of speaker output in relation to nearby surfaces takes a little of the mystery out of speaker placement verses bass response. I highly recommend a short study of this.
There were a number of comments on the Bag End cabinets. These would not be cabinets I would want in my stereo. However these are sound producers, not reproducers. If some midrange gets out the port, bounces around, and mixes in various ways with the front radiation, the player and the audience may very well like the effect. It becomes part of the instrument. This is a good thing. Some of the things that are done in musical production wouldn't be good in musical reproduction, such as overdriving a circuit, using flangers delays, starved tubes, and almost any other effect. I have been involved in speaker design in both the home and in public venues including stadiums for 45+ years. The midlife crisis kicked in a few years ago and I still had some hearing left, so I decided to learn bass playing and destroy the rest of my hearing. The big shock occurred when I started to look at the way bass guitar speakers were designed. Was I transported to a different planet? Do the laws of physics have bylaws especially for bass musicians? No, I had always worked in the REPRODUCTION world, now I was going to be PRODUCING music. Once I got that figured out the speaker designs started making a lot more sense.
A number of forum members have noted there is lot more to the sound of different cabinets then where or how the port is implemented. One musician prefers a cabinet with a simple port instead of slot port with a shelf. I was shocked to notice the same thing when I tried an old Peavey Combo 300BW. I THOUGHT I liked very deep bass with subdued harmonics. Works great in my stereo! This example would require cabinets with long ports. The old Combo 300 just had holes in the baffle. It could not reproduce a pure E with much volume and low THD , but it produced the harmonics loudly. It was so alive and dynamic! I also owned a Peavey TNT with a 15" BW, but its cabinet was tuned lower and made some attempt at a solid E. Although they both had 15" BW speakers, the specifications, the materials, and the way they were assembled made for very different 15" speakers. It wasn't the port that made the difference. It was the speaker design that determined how the port would be. In the Combo 300 instance, a lighter cone and dustcover determined that it would be a bright lively woofer, and a matching transportable cabinet would require a simple port. A heavier cone and a heavily damped dustcap, was part of the TNT speaker, it would not be nearly as lively, and it would allow a longer port to get the maximum bass out of the matching box. The tone of the bass cabinet is largely determined by the speaker, the port makes a much smaller contribution and only at the lowest frequencies, unless it leaks higher frequencies.
That was longer than I intended and now my cat is trying to help me type, so Good Night
John H
 
Old thread, but not dead yet. (Just like me.)
This is actually a discussion of 3 or 4, or maybe 5 great topics:
1. Ported or sealed
2. Front port or rear
3. Directionality of low frequencies
4. Box tuning for high fidelity reproduction or musical instrument sound production
5. Why some speakers sound better than others
• So I guess it's 5 topics after all
As I might have mentioned before, I have been doing this a long time. Started building boxes about 1967, called it Wright Sound in 1980, you can do the math.
1•))) To port or not to port
A port (phase inversion port) allows some of the energy from the back of the cone to augment the front. This happens when, around the tuned frequency, by the time the rear wave gets around to coming out the port hole, it is in phase with the front wave. But as we rarely get something for nothing, it is at the expense of notes that are not around the tuned frequency. Mostly lower. A proper graph would show a bump at the tuned freq. but a steep rolloff below it, compared to a sealed enclosure. So does that mean it has more bass? Well, at that note, yes, but down to 20 cycles, no. I have built a great many boxes, most of them ported, but everything I am doing now is sealed.
2•))) Front port or rear
While making all those boxes, I did do a few with the port on back. Sorry. Wish I hadn't. The concept is crackpot. While it can sound OK in some cases, it is hit or miss, mostly miss. It really does depend on the stage, the wall, the other stuff sitting around it and maybe more.
That also brings me to:
3•))) Directionality of low frequencies
It is a fact that directionality goes down as freq. goes down, but locateability does not. (I know it's not a word, but this is my speech and I can make up words if I need to). A blind guy can tell if the bass is on the left side of the stage or the right. And unless your feet are stuck to the floor, as you move around you can tell if the extra lows from the ports are coming from here or there. Just because lows are less directional dosen't mean you can't hear where they are coming from.
4•))) Box tuning
If you are aiming for high fidelity, you will tune your box design to achieve the flattest response possible. (Best sounding boxes to me are not ported). However, all of my combo guitar amps are open back and sound great, but I would not want an open back speaker in my living room for music or movie sound. The BagEnd little box with the big hole in the back is on the same track as my open back Fender Super. If you like the sound, that's good for you. I wouldn't do it that way, but it's no good arguing with what works. But if you find it is better sometimes than others, that might be the reason why.
5.•))) Speaker sound
If you like the sound of a given speaker, you will probably like it no matter what box it is in. The box, unless it is rattling and falling apart, has only a little to do with the timbre or sound.
Most great sounding speakers for guitars and bases have light weight cones. Don't expect to get the sweet sound you want out of a 600 watt heavy cone pro woofer. The things that make it handle more power also impede its movement making it sound stuffy or harsh. Celestion greenbacks and Jensen orange label, for example, have fantastic sound and very light cones, and low power rating. (Back in time I used a Marshall 4-12 with greenbacks for bass. Sound was great but I was deathly afraid of blowing them.). If you want a concert monster bass rig, that's a different story, but if you want that Ampeg B15 tone, it's low power, light weight cones for you.
Keep on rockin'.
Perry out.
 
Perry's opinions don't align very well with the rest of the market, as well as what I see most bass players are asking for.

Guitar cabinets are very different from bass cabinets, and for bass cabinets the cabinet design is VERY important.

These two markets are very, very different. Making conclusions on one type based on opinions on another type is misleading imo.
 

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