Cabs and Live Sound

[GKevinK]

Micing will give the character of the rig, but the DI will better give the attack and articulation.

I think the booming muddy mess problem is that when they turn the bass up in the PA it adds to the already too much boom from the bass rig, and many don't seem to know that they can use those little faucets on the board to remove the boomy frequencies from the bass channel and to add growl and/ or bite to the bass channel. But, if there is already too much of something in the room from the bass rig, they cannot cure the problem, only try to fill in the missing bits and hope the end result is not too loud for the mix.

+10

As a current bass player and former professional sound engineer, I can't begin to number the instances of when I had the FOH balanced well and then the bass player turns up a little bit. I turn him down a little bit in FOH to rebalance - when prompts him to turn up more... until the FOH is no longer in control of BG levels. After that point, you're mixing everything else to blend in with whatever the bass guitar guy is doing... plus usually fighting to allow the vocalists to still be able to hear the monitors.

Being a player now, I'm constantly reminding myself that what I'm hearing on stage is not the FOH balance or tone.

Like it or not, the FOH engineer ends up being the defacto 'producer' for the sound of a live event. Good ones will be able to accept input from an actual producer regarding the desired end tone result and work to reproduce that. Others will just go with whatever 'sounds right to them'. The goal of any amplification on stage should be only what is needed onstage (assuming a FOH/venue size large enough that the individual instrument amps aren't needed to provide a significant contribution to the FOH mix.)

 

[zac2944]

IME, most SE's don't care about "your tone". They get paid to do the "mix" and since they're the pros (at least in their eyes), whatever you say is ignored.

Recently I spoke with a bass player letting him know that the bass sound/tone out front was overpowering everything else. He said "It's the sound guy". My bass on stage is fine. Go talk to him".

+1

IME, No one cares about "your tone" except you.

Last weekend I had the sound guy come up to me on stage during a tune and tell me that my amp (GK1001 & Schro1212R) was coming through too much out front. I shrugged my shoulders and said "what do you want me to do? I'm in the middle of a song." Then I told him to do what ever he needed to do to my amp to make it right. He turned me down to the point where I could no longer hear my amp and only the slapback from the FOH bass.

That stuff is no fun, but if you're a professional you just deal with it. It is not about YOU, it is about the audience. The FOH guy has all the power, so you just deal with it. If it sounds better out front, then everybody wins.

I actually got compliments that night from a few groupies who said it was the best we ever sounded. It stunk for me, but worked for them. Mission accomplished.

 

[KJung]

+1

IME, No one cares about "your tone" except you.

Last weekend I had the sound guy come up to me on stage during a tune and tell me that my amp (GK1001 & Schro1212R) was coming through too much out front. I shrugged my shoulders and said "what do you want me to do? I'm in the middle of a song." Then I told him to do what ever he needed to do to my amp to make it right. He turned me down to the point where I could no longer hear my amp and only the slapback from the FOH bass.

That stuff is no fun, but if you're a professional you just deal with it. It is not about YOU, it is about the audience. The FOH guy has all the power, so you just deal with it. If it sounds better out front, then everybody wins.

I actually got compliments that night from a few groupies who said it was the best we ever sounded. It stunk for me, but worked for them. Mission accomplished.

+1. Don't know if you considered this, but when I play with a full front of house system, but without a monitor system capable of serving as my only on stage sound source, I always set my rig off to the side of the stage and point it across the stage, perpendicular to the audience. That way, you aren't messing with the front of house sound (most sound people very much appreciate it), you can still crank it a bit for you own monitoring, and your stage sound actually many times gets better, since often you cab is even with other band members or even in front of them.

I know that's obvious, but just in case you haven't tried it, it's a wonderful thing for everyone IMO and IME!

 

[ihateusernames]

+1. Don't know if you considered this, but when I play with a full front of house system, but without a monitor system capable of serving as my only on stage sound source, I always set my rig off to the side of the stage and point it across the stage, perpendicular to the audience. That way, you aren't messing with the front of house sound (most sound people very much appreciate it), you can still crank it a bit for you own monitoring, and your stage sound actually many times gets better, since often you cab is even with other band members or even in front of them.

I know that's obvious, but just in case you haven't tried it, it's a wonderful thing for everyone IMO and IME!

I do the same, actually angled at the drummer from behind the FOH stack. Usually cut the low on the amp a bit as well to keep the lower frequencies from bleeding over. Works very well, enough that the guitarists are now doing the same thing.

 

[TimmyP]

+1. Don't know if you considered this, but when I play with a full front of house system, but without a monitor system capable of serving as my only on stage sound source, I always set my rig off to the side of the stage and point it across the stage, perpendicular to the audience. That way, you aren't messing with the front of house sound (most sound people very much appreciate it), you can still crank it a bit for you own monitoring, and your stage sound actually many times gets better, since often you cab is even with other band members or even in front of them.

I know that's obvious, but just in case you haven't tried it, it's a wonderful thing for everyone IMO and IME!

For guitar this works to some extent. For bass the only thing it does is remove the overly twanky bits from killing people - the overly loud boom out front will be unchanged.

 

[JimmyM]

I like good sound as much as the next guy, but one thing that's never bothered me is a little bleed from the stage. Some PA guys freak out about it so much, and they're what I like to call "amateurs."

 

[51m0n]

I like good sound as much as the next guy, but one thing that's never bothered me is a little bleed from the stage. Some PA guys freak out about it so much, and they're what I like to call "amateurs."

+1 Once again I agree with you Jimmy.

I'd say that live you cant avoid bleed between instruments, so a decent engineer will know how to cope/minimise/go with it.

In fact a lot of very very good studio recordings have plenty of bleed in them too, and all live drum tracks have some bleed.

Gating everything to the point of having no bleed is not only impractical it sounds like absolute rubbish too...

If a PA is doing the right thing it is bringing the sound of a performance to the audience, by definition it shouldnt be a problem to have some bleed off stage!

 

[BigMac5]

I like good sound as much as the next guy, but one thing that's never bothered me is a little bleed from the stage. Some PA guys freak out about it so much, and they're what I like to call "amateurs."

I agree, a little bleed from stage is fine.

 

[Rathead123]

Did anyone mention crossovers? Any good P.A. rig should have them in the rack.. if you raise the freq in the crossovers less boom, mud,etc. When subs are involved the crossovers, dial type, reaily help alot. if its at 80hz, bumpit to 120hz, or what ever it takes. Remember Im talking about the ones that fade the freqs not the ones that are freq cutoffs. I have a Sunn 300 from the 80's, the one no one likes, and it has a crossover in the Biamp output, I run a 1/4 " line from it to a DI and set it to the room, and it pretty much sounds in the room as it does onstage. All my "modern" heads with DI and no built in crossover color the sound to the P.A. to much. With the Sunn, crossover, etc I have a smooth "piano" bass sound in the room, and the sound guys love it.

 

[aborgman]

+1

IME, No one cares about "your tone" except you.

Last weekend I had the sound guy come up to me on stage during a tune and tell me that my amp (GK1001 & Schro1212R) was coming through too much out front. I shrugged my shoulders and said "what do you want me to do? I'm in the middle of a song." Then I told him to do what ever he needed to do to my amp to make it right. He turned me down to the point where I could no longer hear my amp and only the slapback from the FOH bass.

That stuff is no fun, but if you're a professional you just deal with it. It is not about YOU, it is about the audience. The FOH guy has all the power, so you just deal with it. If it sounds better out front, then everybody wins.

I actually got compliments that night from a few groupies who said it was the best we ever sounded. It stunk for me, but worked for them. Mission accomplished.

+1,000,000x10^23

 

[dave_bass5]

Ive read all this thread and understand most of it, even if its gone a bit off track but one thing i would like to ask any of the SE's in this thread is why, when using a big rig do us bass player end up with quite a generic tone.

While it might well fit in with the bass drum and i can understand that using a much fuller rig than a bass rig will give a lot more low and high end ive never had a SE try and get "my" tone out in to the room. Even DI'ing straight off the bass why cant they hear what it is i like (or even ask) and try and get some sort of representation of that?

Im not talking about having a good mix FOH but having a mix that represents us.

Having been watching some of the outdoor festivals on TV the past few weeks most of the bands all seem to have more or less the same tone. As this is coming off the desk its not really showing the effort some people put in to getting their tone.
Im sure bands that do have their own SE fair much better but i get the feeling us bass players are getting a bum deal here.
Most (if not all) guitarists would explode if a SE said he was only going to DI the guitar and not mic up their lovely vintage Fender twin, why dont we have the same choice all the time?
I know thats how it is but no ones explained to me why that's how it is and why it cant change.

Ill go back in my hole now

 

[ihateusernames]

Ive read all this thread and understand most of it, even if its gone a bit off track but one thing i would like to ask any of the SE's in this thread is why, when using a big rig do us bass player end up with quite a generic tone.

While it might well fit in with the bass drum and i can understand that using a much fuller rig than a bass rig will give a lot more low and high end ive never had a SE try and get "my" tone out in to the room. Even DI'ing straight off the bass why cant they hear what it is i like (or even ask) and try and get some sort of representation of that?

Im not talking about having a good mix FOH but having a mix that represents us.

Having been watching some of the outdoor festivals on TV the past few weeks most of the bands all seem to have more or less the same tone. As this is coming off the desk its not really showing the effort some people put in to getting their tone.
Im sure bands that do have their own SE fair much better but i get the feeling us bass players are getting a bum deal here.
Most (if not all) guitarists would explode if a SE said he was only going to DI the guitar and not mic up their lovely vintage Fender twin, why dont we have the same choice all the time?
I know thats how it is but no ones explained to me why that's how it is and why it cant change.

Ill go back in my hole now

Most guitarists also end up with generic tone at FOH as well. It's the same as playing a passive single coil vs. active humbucker or whatever you can imagine. The tone is just a bit different either way, but when I played a 70's Strat through any effects, through a Fender tube amp running a Marshall cab mic'd with an SM57 the final eq'd tone from FOH didn't vary all that much from a Les Paul through a Marshall head with the same mic. Yes, the overall tone and harmonic structure varied but they got eq'd every time to sound like a generic rock guitar sound with a bit of my own flavor.

Guitarists get mic'd because it's what works for the instrument and most engineers know how to make a mic'd guitar amp fit the mix they want to hear. They also know a DI straight from a 6-string electric guitar sounds like absolute garbage, try it and hear for yourself.

It's unfortunate but bass just works well for most people, in most places, playing most genres, with most FOH systems when a DI is taken straight from the bass output jack. It's usually quick and easy too.

 

[dave_bass5]

It's unfortunate but bass just works well for most people, in most places, playing most genres, with most FOH systems when a DI is taken straight from the bass output jack. It's usually quick and easy too.

I take your points but my question still is once the SE has a good feed, be it DI or Mic why is all the character then EQ'ed out of it?
i can understand EQ'ing for the room but its almost like its standard practice to make all basses sound the same.
Maybe its just me that hears it like that. Even at big gigs that ive been to the bass is sort of sitting in the mix, holding down the low end but not much more (of course thats only the bands ive seen, cant comment on anything esle)

I know what you mean about guitar's sounding the same as well.
I found that nearly all the bands i watched at Glastonbury had what i call a festival sound. lifeless and flat.

 

[zac2944]

I take your points but my question still is once the SE has a good feed, be it DI or Mic why is all the character then EQ'ed out of it?

I would imagine that part of the reason is that there is only so much sonic space in the soundstage for bass. It is like when you're mixing in a studio. You don't wan't the bass guitar down where the kick is, so you lo-cut the bass just above where the kick is hi-cut. Now you hi-cut the bass so it leaves room for the keys, guitar, vocals, etc. It happens to everyone on stage, not just the bass. Vocals might be the only exception, but that's because in most bands everything revolves around the vocals.

 

[dave_bass5]

I would imagine that part of the reason is that there is only so much sonic space in the soundstage for bass. It is like when you're mixing in a studio. You don't wan't the bass guitar down where the kick is, so you lo-cut the bass just above where the kick is hi-cut. Now you hi-cut the bass so it leaves room for the keys, guitar, vocals, etc. It happens to everyone on stage, not just the bass. Vocals might be the only exception, but that's because in most bands everything revolves around the vocals.

But there seems to be enough sonic space when we do our own mix. Mainly useing just a vocla PA and backline.
It sounds good then so why cant it sound close, but louder?

Ive seen (heard) the real big bands do it. Look at Pink floyd etc, every note really clear so it must be possible.

 

[TimmyP]

But there seems to be enough sonic space when we do our own mix. Mainly useing just a vocla PA and backline.
It sounds good then so why cant it sound close, but louder?

Ive seen (heard) the real big bands do it. Look at Pink floyd etc, every note really clear so it must be possible.

Think about it. In a bar or small hall, you may have a 50W guitar amp and a 5000W PA. In a large venue, you might have a 100W guitar amp and a 100,000W PA. The 50W guitar amp in a bar is a much bigger percentage of the overall sound than is the 100W amp in a large venue. The lower percentage that is stage volume, the cleaner the mix gets (providing that the person driving knows that he's doing).

 

[TimmyP]

I would imagine that part of the reason is that there is only so much sonic space in the soundstage for bass. It is like when you're mixing in a studio. You don't wan't the bass guitar down where the kick is, so you lo-cut the bass just above where the kick is hi-cut. Now you hi-cut the bass so it leaves room for the keys, guitar, vocals, etc. It happens to everyone on stage, not just the bass. Vocals might be the only exception, but that's because in most bands everything revolves around the vocals.

I expect that this is a lot of the reason that so many current albums have no balls at all - they take an instrument that does not go very low (kick drum) and then high pass above this the only instrument in the ensemble that does go low (the bass). NOT the way to go.

I think the other reason is that a lot more albums are recorded and mastered on speakers that can't reproduce low end. Since the mixperson cannot tell that there is low end there, he high passes everything just for safety. (Or, he high passes because his monitoring system cannot handle any lows that are there.)

 

[cabrego]

In small gigs I use my amp to fill the room, but when we play big gigs I use my amp as a monitor on the side and I let the PA do all the work. A good way to get your PA sound is to kill your cabinet and do a song only using the PA. You might suffer on stage for a song but it allows you to get a good sound when the band is playing. A lot of people get a killer sound during a quick sound check, but once the band starts the bass doesn't cut through.

 

[staindbass]

+10

As a current bass player and former professional sound engineer, I can't begin to number the instances of when I had the FOH balanced well and then the bass player turns up a little bit. I turn him down a little bit in FOH to rebalance - when prompts him to turn up more... until the FOH is no longer in control of BG levels. After that point, you're mixing everything else to blend in with whatever the bass guitar guy is doing... plus usually fighting to allow the vocalists to still be able to hear the monitors.

Being a player now, I'm constantly reminding myself that what I'm hearing on stage is not the FOH balance or tone.

Like it or not, the FOH engineer ends up being the defacto 'producer' for the sound of a live event. Good ones will be able to accept input from an actual producer regarding the desired end tone result and work to reproduce that. Others will just go with whatever 'sounds right to them'. The goal of any amplification on stage should be only what is needed onstage (assuming a FOH/venue size large enough that the individual instrument amps aren't needed to provide a significant contribution to the FOH mix.)

flip the phase of the rig on the board? that should quiet him down a lil. johnny a

 

[staindbass]

It has occurred to me that it doesn't really matter what my cab sounds like when it comes to live sound. No matter what tone I'm going for, the sound guy always makes it thick bass. I play a GK800RB through an Ampeg SVT 410 HLF and an SWR 210, which has plenty of bite but it doesn't come across that way through the PA. Does this cab setup color the sound and give it more bite than the direct out from my amp, or is it the sound guy making me so bassy? I've always wondered why every local band I've seen has sub bass for tone. Is that just the way they do it, or do I need a more transparent cab?

welcome to the jungle johnny a