Cabs and Live Sound

[dave_bass5]

Think about it. In a bar or small hall, you may have a 50W guitar amp and a 5000W PA. In a large venue, you might have a 100W guitar amp and a 100,000W PA. The 50W guitar amp in a bar is a much bigger percentage of the overall sound than is the 100W amp in a large venue. The lower percentage that is stage volume, the cleaner the mix gets (providing that the person driving knows that he's doing).

Yes but what im asking (and maybe im being a bit of a pian now so sorry to keep going on) is why doenst the FOH sound like the backline a bit more.
Im all for keeping the sound low on stage and i have gigged with just my bass DI'ed in to the PA so i understand most fo this but if my rig has a certain tone that i like why cant the SE at least try and get it and not just mix out a lot of the tone, just so it sits down low with the bass drum in a generic sort of way. We work hard to get our sound and even though going through a 10,000watt PA is totality different isn't the reason we have PA's this size is to relay the band but louder?

 

[The Lurker]

+1. Don't know if you considered this, but when I play with a full front of house system, but without a monitor system capable of serving as my only on stage sound source, I always set my rig off to the side of the stage and point it across the stage, perpendicular to the audience. That way, you aren't messing with the front of house sound (most sound people very much appreciate it), you can still crank it a bit for you own monitoring, and your stage sound actually many times gets better, since often you cab is even with other band members or even in front of them.

I know that's obvious, but just in case you haven't tried it, it's a wonderful thing for everyone IMO and IME!

I started doing this about a year ago. Good way to keep stage volume relatively separate from what's going out through the PA.

The funny thing is, I tend to play with my eyes closed sometimes, and when I do that I automatically put my back to the sound of the amp.....

 

[Nick Kay]

Yes but what im asking (and maybe im being a bit of a pian now so sorry to keep going on) is why doenst the FOH sound like the backline a bit more.
Im all for keeping the sound low on stage and i have gigged with just my bass DI'ed in to the PA so i understand most fo this but if my rig has a certain tone that i like why cant the SE at least try and get it and not just mix out a lot of the tone, just so it sits down low with the bass drum in a generic sort of way. We work hard to get our sound and even though going through a 10,000watt PA is totality different isn't the reason we have PA's this size is to relay the band but louder?

Sometimes, the sound in your head (or, the sound on stage) wouldn't work out in the house.

And by sometimes, I mean most of the time.

 

[sonicnuance]

+10

As a current bass player and former professional sound engineer, I can't begin to number the instances of when I had the FOH balanced well and then the bass player turns up a little bit. I turn him down a little bit in FOH to rebalance - when prompts him to turn up more... until the FOH is no longer in control of BG levels. After that point, you're mixing everything else to blend in with whatever the bass guitar guy is doing... plus usually fighting to allow the vocalists to still be able to hear the monitors.

Being a player now, I'm constantly reminding myself that what I'm hearing on stage is not the FOH balance or tone.

Like it or not, the FOH engineer ends up being the defacto 'producer' for the sound of a live event. Good ones will be able to accept input from an actual producer regarding the desired end tone result and work to reproduce that. Others will just go with whatever 'sounds right to them'. The goal of any amplification on stage should be only what is needed onstage (assuming a FOH/venue size large enough that the individual instrument amps aren't needed to provide a significant contribution to the FOH mix.)

I've come around to agree with this but it has now influenced me in a strange way... I'm hesitant to touch the BG's active preamp for fear it will mess with the FOH sound. I don't like to make the soundman's job difficult.

So here is my current solution: I have a core onstage sound I go for which is controlled by my amp and its eq. I send the soundman the hottest, cleanest pre EQ signal I can give him. The majority of the tone I go for is inherent in the flat settings of the BG and amp, and of course (don't roll your eyes) my hands. I make only small adjustments for the eq via the amp to compensate for unwanted frequencies on stage - this doesn't affect the FOH. I then make only MINOR changes for tone if necessary on the bass being careful to keep the volume the same (ie, if I change pickup settings I try to not disrupt the mix). For more monitor volume I only play with the master volume on the amp and not the volume on the bass.

I try to move about onstage and off to see what the audience might be hearing and I always thank the soundman and ask for his feedback and suggestions.

So far this is working out well, although I'm pretty sure my concept of bass tone isn't the same as the soundman's. He makes the bass sound to the audience how he wants it. As long as the song sounds good I'm ok with that. To the extent it doesn't, I provide the unsolicited feedback

 

[fokof]

I take your points but my question still is once the SE has a good feed, be it DI or Mic why is all the character then EQ'ed out of it?
.

An EQ can't change the tone of an instrument.
You will still have your tone , the EQ'ing , if done correctly , will serve the whole mix.
You can't make a Fender Jazz sound like a Rickenbaker with a FOH board's parametric EQ.
You can't make a Vox30 sound like a marshall with an EQ , etc....

 

[lethargytartare]

Yes but what im asking (and maybe im being a bit of a pian now so sorry to keep going on) is why doenst the FOH sound like the backline a bit more.
Im all for keeping the sound low on stage and i have gigged with just my bass DI'ed in to the PA so i understand most fo this but if my rig has a certain tone that i like why cant the SE at least try and get it and not just mix out a lot of the tone, just so it sits down low with the bass drum in a generic sort of way. We work hard to get our sound and even though going through a 10,000watt PA is totality different isn't the reason we have PA's this size is to relay the band but louder?

I have to imagine that SEs have a tone THEY go for -- so, just as you have a tone for yourself, they have a tone for their venue. There's no way, in 20 minutes of sound-checking, they can translate every unique bassist's style (and that of the drummer, guitarists, keys, etc.) into something that sound like you intended AND works for the room. So instead, they move everything to a set of tones that they KNOW will work, regardless of how closely it resembles your intended tone. Remember, as has been said, nobody really cares about the bassist's tone like the bassist might -- everyone else, SE included, cares about the house mix. Hell, the rest of the BAND might not care -- they just want to hear everyone, and then hear their OWN tone.

I'd throw out two other fun variables -- lots of bands sound like crap and don't know it -- so SEs are usually doing those folks a favor by changing their tone; and plenty of SEs are not actually SEs but rather are bartenders that already work at the club or bar and who know enough to get an acceptable job done -- so if you get anything that resembles a decent mix, you should thank the stars...

The best way to insure you get your tone and your mix in every venue is to buy your own system, and hire a dedicated sound guy. Note the cost...

I remember the first big place I played, and hearing the FOH mix (I was using a wireless)...I hated it. But I remembered hearing one of the earlier bands, and realized it was going to sound good in the room, so I went back on stage and pretended I'd never heard it. That I didn't have my friends signaling at me all night that different things needed to be turned up tells me he (the SE) was right on.

Cheers!
ltt

 

[fokof]

Any SE will deal with the sound coming from the band , and he has to do a decent mix no matter what the band sounds like.
I'm 50% SE-bass player and sometimes you have to make it sound good even if the guitar player has more low end than the bass player , the keyboards are all over the place in dynamics with different patches , the bass player amp is louder than the PA , the drummer don't know how to tune a drum , and it is a female signer.....
It looks like a joke but I've mixed band like that , and all those players thought they were the s****

And again a soundman CAN'T CHANGE YOUR TONE.
He will EQ you so that he can get a decent mix by removing unwanted "ringing frequencies" and trying not to "overlap" different instrument in the same frequency range.

IMHO and IME , arrangements are more important than a good soundman. And like you know , arrangements include ( and is not only ) allowing the frequency range ( like a string or horn section ) and most important ; the dynamics.

 

[hbarcat]

I take your points but my question still is once the SE has a good feed, be it DI or Mic why is all the character then EQ'ed out of it?

Because a significant amount of the "character" in your bass tone is located in the same frequency range as the guitars, vocals, keys, parts of the drum kit and many other instruments depending on your band. The sad truth is that those instruments need to have a lot of room there without interference from the bass in order to get the sound that is most pleasing to he audience.

Or think of it from the other direction. Suppose you were in a Primus tribute band. You would EQ the bass first and make sure that the bass tone would be right up front and the audience could hear it loud and clear in all its glory. Then you'd mix in the drums and maybe dial back a tiny amount of the bass here and there to make room for them. Then you'd mix in just enough guitar and vocals to make them audible, making sure they only took up a very narrow portion of frequency so they wouldn't interfere with the bass and drums, and not caring so much that the guitar and vocals sounded thin and lacked character.

Granted, this is somewhat of an oversimplification, because there is compression and other processing going on, but it is pretty much accurate. In any band (that is not Primus) the bass isn't going to be top priority and its tone is sacrificed for the good of the other instruments. Now if you were in a Rush or RHCP type of band, then at least you could hope to get equal treatment to the other instruments.