I've heard some laminate tops that sound very good--but a solid top will be better--have a solid cedar top on my Simon & Patrick 12 string.
it is possible to get a solid top in a lower priced guitar--a lot more than it ever was.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Calling all multi-instrumentalists! Guitar or Keys
- Thread starter aaronious
- Start date
it is possible to get a solid top in a lower priced guitar--a lot more than it ever was.
Yes - Yamaha or Takamine make good instruments at any level, and the Yamaha ply tops are probably the best I've heard. Also, the Fender entry-level solid tops are pretty good these days.
Yes, forgot to mention the fender. The newer ones I've tried have been impressive!
That's great to hear! Sounds like you'd be pretty set for guitar if you go that route.
For keyboards, it really depends on what equipment you currently have.
My band's keyboardist is using one of these - M-Audio Keystation 61 61-key MIDI Controller (I can't remember the exact model but it's by this brand, 61 keys, and just a midi controller... probably this one or very similar)
The keyboard itself is pretty cheap since it's just a MIDI controller, and the 'brains' are on her laptop. In other words, the keyboard doesn't contain any sound information, it just puts out MIDI data (through the USB wire, in this case).
If you have a computer with some MIDI software (I believe she's using Mainstage on her macbook, it allows for some pretty advanced sound sculpting), then you just need to plug in the USB from the keyboard and you're set. There's lots of other MIDI-controller-only keyboards. So the total cost SHOULD be MIDI controller price + software price. I'm assuming the keyboard comes with the USB cable (it should) and you already have speakers/headphones/etc (you could plug into the amp I guess). There are also some free MIDI software I think, gotta check it up. I downloaded some free MIDI apps for iPad that were pretty good, you can plug into the iPad using the CCK for USB and use the iPad as a module (the "brains") creating the sounds from the MIDI signals from the MIDI controller.
The downside to this is that if you want to bring the keyboard out for gigs, you need to bring the laptop with you. You'll also need something to plug into the mixer (at rehearsals, my keyboardist just uses a 3.8mm to 1/4" cable and sends a signal to the mixer from her laptop's headphones jack, but for serious gigs she uses some kind of DI interface thingy).
There's another downside to this particular keyboard, it's not "weighted". When you play a piano, because each key press results in the hammer swinging, there's a feeling of "weight" when you press down. Most keyboards on the other hand are just really lightweight plastic, so you won't have the feeling of having to move something with substantial inertia. This may or may not be a deal-breaker for you, you need to go to a shop and compare between weighted and unweighted keyboards to know. But as a classical pianist, I find that non-weighted keyboards feel... a little weird.
You'll probably need to know two terms for this, "weighted" and "velocity sensitive". Actual pianos are both weighted and velocity sensitive, so you have the feeling of pressing against some inertia, but the harder you press, the louder the note. Most decent keyboards should be at least velocity sensitive, i.e. how hard you press matters, and your note shape depends on how exactly you press the key. I strongly recommend NOT getting something that isn't velocity sensitive, IMO it's quite important (and also one of the downsides of iPad keyboard apps, it's just a touchscreen and you can't get velocity sensitive on it).
One other advantage (I suppose) is that if you ever get a MIDI bass thing (e.g. the Fishman midi pickups, the Industrial Radio midi bass, etc.) you can plug it in and use your bass as a MIDI controller for some sweet synth bass sounds.
On the other hand, if you don't have a computer that you can use for MIDI, then you'll have to get a stand-alone keyboard. That means that the keyboard needs to contain the module for producing the sounds. I don't know of any good ones within the $200 range, you'll have to ask the salespeople at the music store. Make sure to check for velocity-sensitive keys, and decide how many octaves you need on the keyboard. And also decide if you're looking more for a synth, a workstation, or a digital piano. A synth would be more for producing... well, synth pads and stuff, a workstation would be for a huge range of sounds that you would use for composing, and a digital piano generally means it's a substitute for a piano. Of course, these aren't hard definitions, but different keyboards are more suited to different kinds of stuff (especially considering their size/weight/portability and their built-in patches and how much patch editing functionality there is). Sorry, can't help you much here! I'm using a Novation Mininova, which is a small compact synth and definitely isn't a workstation or digital piano, but that's slightly out of range unless you get a good secondhand deal... got mine for about US$200+ secondhand.
Probably because you simply move up/down the fretboard, and duplicate the same three or four chord forms.
Until you really get practiced on keyboards, it's not as natural. Because the fingering for a B major chord is entirely different than that of a Bb major, which is entirely different than a G major etc.
You get exactly what you put into it, that being said if you know bass, you already have a lot of the core concepts of guitar already so that might be the way to go for you
Me personally on the keys side would look at a casio px160 for the low end. but I did take piano lessons when i was younger. i have a px150 now which my daughter actually gigged once for school veteran's day celebration.
I play bass, keys, and guitar. If I had to choose and affordable second instrument it would be an acoustic. I take mine everywhere... The beach, hiking, vacations, etc. You can't do that with all but a few cheap and crappy sounding electronic toy keyboards.
Get a good one. There's a lot of fine used guitars out there for under $350.
I also agree with what many said about keys. It's a great instrument and one I use the most to write on. I have a piano at home but gig with a midi controller through a mac book pro.
That said...
I'd still get a guitar first.
Get a good one. There's a lot of fine used guitars out there for under $350.
I also agree with what many said about keys. It's a great instrument and one I use the most to write on. I have a piano at home but gig with a midi controller through a mac book pro.
That said...
I'd still get a guitar first.
As someone that doesn't read music and didn't study music theory, learning keyboard helped me more than anything to visualize and understand how chords, scales,etc. work. As for guitar, if I was trapped on an island with only one instrument, it would be a guitar- you can pretty much be your own band with a guitar, and it's a lot easier to carry than a piano.
I spent about 20 years being a bass player in various three/four piece bands, and learning keyboards opened up a whole new pallet of sounds for me and my current band. The ability to do synth pads, piano parts, sound effects, etc. really fills out the sound of our three piece. Also I've gotten pretty good at left hand bass so I can get some pretty cool analog synth bass going while doing those pads and key parts with the other hand.
My bass playing has definitely gotten better since I can see it's role in the music better from the viewpoint of other parts.
I spent about 20 years being a bass player in various three/four piece bands, and learning keyboards opened up a whole new pallet of sounds for me and my current band. The ability to do synth pads, piano parts, sound effects, etc. really fills out the sound of our three piece. Also I've gotten pretty good at left hand bass so I can get some pretty cool analog synth bass going while doing those pads and key parts with the other hand.
My bass playing has definitely gotten better since I can see it's role in the music better from the viewpoint of other parts.
I've been playing a midrange solid-top Yamaha since I bought it new in 94 - it's my main songwriting tool. All of the solid top yamahas are decent choices for their prices, IMO. My preference is to stay with the solid tops - they have plenty of options for low to mid-range budgets, if that's a concern. Mine has aged fairly nicely - mellow and boomy.
I bought my daughter an epiphone hummingbird clone last year that I like - looks nice, nice sound and finish for the price (cheap), and ok built in electronics.
That's another point - maybe someone brought it up already. But if you want to write songs there is a good chance you will end up at some open mic type situation. Best to have an acoustic you can plug in. There is nothing I hate more than acoustic mics (piezos, soundhole mics, pickups, all of them) but they are a necessary evil. My yammi has no electronics, and I have avoided installing them because I hate them so much. I should have just bought it pre-installed and been done with it. They all suck, regardless.
Open mics/song showcases are a little more difficult to pull off with a keyboard. Not impossible. But most situations expect guitars.
You can get a decent midi-capable keyboard with built-in sounds for cheap (Yamaha, casios). Maybe not "pro", but they do their job.
PIANO VS GUITAR
Of course plenty of folks have mentioned getting both. That's best. But if you prefer to pick one, guitar is far easier to lay down chord ideas, and easier to sing along with to get a basic song arrangement. But you're kinda left with your ears to come up with and remember the melodies. If you know scales and keys well, piano will get you further in that area. That being said, some genres just lend themselves well to either.
This is where things get sticky. If you want a full production station, invest in a proper MIDI controller/workstation/synth (with weighted keys, etc...). They can get very pricey. If you just want to write songs and play solo live (open mics, etc...), then get a cheaper keyboard with sounds and line out/speakers. There are keyboard options with weighted/velocity sensitive keys in that price range, I believe, and most are midi-capable. They are just not meant to be primary production controllers/stations.
I took a quick look and was surprised to see that Sweetwater lists nine keyboards under 0. Looks like about the cheapest four of those are *not* velocity-sensitive, so I'd skip those. The others are probably adequate.
I'd be inclined to buy first on the quality of they keyboard itself (hammer-action/fully-weighted keys best, demand at least full-size velocity-sensitive keys), and size (more's probably better if you don't care about portability; 88 is standard for a piano, I wouldn't go less than 61 unless you really know what you want). For the electronics--as long as there's one decent sound you can live with, that's probably enough to get started?
I see a lot of used keyboards on Craigslist around here, that's probably a good way to get a better deal. And they shouldn't require an expert to check out--if the keys all work and it makes sound, then it's probably OK.
At that price range I wouldn't recommend a real piano, unless you're looking for a project. You'll often see them show up that cheap (even free) on craiglist, but just getting them moved can be a project, they'll need more maintenance, and just checking what condition they're in may require more of an expert.
May want to budget for something to put the keyboard on, something for you to sit on, and an amp. Personally I sit on my keyboard amp, which also doubles as my bass amp, when I'm not just practicing with headphones.... Cheap keyboards often have built-in speakers which will be adequate for practicing.
No strong opinion on the guitar vs. keyboard question. As a bass and keyboard player the thing that most makes me jealous of guitar players is the ability to be a portable cord-free one-man band. Keyboards have the versatility but not so much the portability. But keyboard's probably otherwise the more versatile instrument and better for learning general musicianship.
That, and the fact you only need one hand to make chords. The other is primarily rhythm. Pianos really require both hands to play a proper chord progression with melody - and both are more involved in rhythm. You can learn three chords on a guitar, and instantly sing a song. It's a lot harder to do that on piano. That being said, bass and drums also require much more coordination to sing along with than guitar.
Guitars make good songwriting tools because they are able to cover both rhythm and chords very painlessly. They are portable, and can provide complete accompaniment anywhere at anytime. Very few instruments can do that. Portable keyboards are a very recent phenomenon, and may still be limited by electronics/size/scale length/amplification, etc... Guitars got it all covered.
I started on piano when I was 5, took up bass at 13, and acoustic guitar about a year later. Bass won out as a primary instrument, but even so, I'll never give up on the other two.
You ask about pros and cons of different instruments - I don't think there are any cons to playing a variety of instruments. The more musical realms you're able to think and function in, the more versatile you are as a musician. But based on the styles you have an affinity for, I'd probably recommend keys to start with strictly from the standpoint of harmonic movement. Although there's no hard and fast rule, it's a fair generalization that in many popular styles (rock, folk, country, even blues to a large degree), there's typically a tighter lock between chordal movement and bass movement. A progression like G - Em - C - D (I - vi - IV - V in G major) will usually involve the bass carrying the literal chord roots with other instruments fleshing out the triad structures on top. That makes guitar a perfectly adequate instrument for creating music in those styles. But where jazz and more harmonically rich styles are involved, keys are far more conducive to creating music with more independence between the bass parts and the rest of the harmonic structure. Sure, it's possible to voice all sorts of complex chords with alternate bass notes on guitar, but it's not always comfortable or even intuitive. On piano, though, you can easily work with some crazy group of chords like Bbm7 - Cm7 - F/Eb - Dbmaj7 - Ab13 - Gbmaj7 (copped directly from a Steely Dan tune, by the way), or a progression involving pedal points like Bmaj7 - F#7/B - C#m/B or whatever. This sort of stuff is quicker and easier to realize on keyboards. At least for most of us mere mortals.
Regardless, don't limit your options. If you like the sound of sitar, steel drums or marimba, learn 'em. You can never have too much in your repertoire.
Get an electric guitar, then add a Fishman Triple Play MIDI controller.
I play all my bass chords on the electric and utilize my bass scales as well. I tuned the guitar in perfect 4ths as well so I don't have to worry about the shift at the B and E string.
I play all my bass chords on the electric and utilize my bass scales as well. I tuned the guitar in perfect 4ths as well so I don't have to worry about the shift at the B and E string.
