Can someone explain why I can't wrap my head around this?

[mambo4]

took another listen
Ignore the high strings of the guitar
listen only to the lower notes the guitar part plays
the lower guitar notes are a prefect 4/4 pulse

 

[dbsfgyd1]

It's borderline embarrassing, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around the progression of an incredibly easy song.

I'm in a early/mid 2000s pop-punk/emo cover band. One of the songs we're adding that I'm singing is Blink 182's "What's My Age Again". At face value it's a simple four chord song, root notes on bass with a couple 5ths in the bridge. Progression for the verse and chorus both are B, Gb, Db, Eb. 8th notes, downstrokes with the pick. The guitar opens with its riff twice and then the bass comes in. The whole progression is played twice more before the vocals come in.

Logically I understand everything I just wrote, however when I'm playing it, it feels off. The 4 downstrokes of the B feels like it's ending the progression, not starting it. I don't know if the vocals not coming in right away is screwing me up (there appears to be a quarter note rest once playing B before the vocals come in), or if I can't get Green Day's "When I Come Around" out of my head. That song uses the same chords but it goes Gb, Db, Eb, B. So that does what I'm thinking What's My Age Again is doing. Interestingly enough, I'm only getting thrown off going into the first verse, not the second.

Here's what the bass is doing, for reference. Again, the song is no problem to play, I'm just having a mental roadblock with the structure.



And just because I mentioned it, here's When I Come Around, for comparison's sake.

The is no law that say the vocals (or melody) have to start on the first beat of the measure. Ignore it.

 

[the_Ryan]

To me it sounds like every time a new instrument comes in (except the vocals) that's a downbeat, which is definitely an odd spot in the chord progression given that this is a 4-chord song (I V vi IV, or the minor version i VI III VII), but I think it creates kind of a rhythmic and harmonic tension, where the chords are displaced by two beats and makes the chord progression line up in a spot where our ears don't expect to hear it. The full bars of C# and D# reorient the progression to where it "should" be, and then resolves to I (F#) for the chorus. The vocal phrases not landing on 1 in the verses don't bother me too much since while it is unusual, it isn't unheard of in pop music, and to me the bass/cymbal and the drum entrances reinforce where 1 is much more than the vocals.

Directly to the OP: while F# and Gb are enharmonic (meaning they sound the same), they are not the same note, and generally you don't mix sharps with flats in chord progressions.

Additionally, I think just listening to the song over and over again will help with not getting as tripped up: absorbing a song through osmosis, knowing how it goes, and being able to play it back in your head will help with not getting tripped up because you have it in you away from the bass. The music comes from hearing it in our head first, and being able to hear a song (and maybe more importantly, being able to sing the melody and the bassline) without the bass in hand will make playing it on the bass much easier, barring technical difficulties.

 

[micguy]

Have tried practicing more?

Seriously? Do you have any idea where you are? This is Talkbass. We're a gear acquisition enablement club, not a place you go to to be told....to practice!?!?

Mods!!!

 

[Lance Bunyon]

Don't overthink it. Listen to the piece 100 times while driving your car so you just HEAR the piece. It's rock n roll, not Mozart.

 

[HowieD72]

Try walking away from it for a bit.
I was having issues with a 2/4 part at the beginning of the verses in I Got You/Split Enz.
It was a combination of being too tired (1:30 A.M.) and overthinking. Stupid simple part but it was messing with me. Walked away and got a good nights sleep and the next day, bang, stupid simple.

Good to see people in the U.S.A. have heard of New Zealand's Split Enz!

 

[pglaser01]

It's borderline embarrassing, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around the progression of an incredibly easy song.

I'm in a early/mid 2000s pop-punk/emo cover band. One of the songs we're adding that I'm singing is Blink 182's "What's My Age Again". At face value it's a simple four chord song, root notes on bass with a couple 5ths in the bridge. Progression for the verse and chorus both are B, Gb, Db, Eb. 8th notes, downstrokes with the pick. The guitar opens with its riff twice and then the bass comes in. The whole progression is played twice more before the vocals come in.

Logically I understand everything I just wrote, however when I'm playing it, it feels off. The 4 downstrokes of the B feels like it's ending the progression, not starting it. I don't know if the vocals not coming in right away is screwing me up (there appears to be a quarter note rest once playing B before the vocals come in), or if I can't get Green Day's "When I Come Around" out of my head. That song uses the same chords but it goes Gb, Db, Eb, B. So that does what I'm thinking What's My Age Again is doing. Interestingly enough, I'm only getting thrown off going into the first verse, not the second.

Here's what the bass is doing, for reference. Again, the song is no problem to play, I'm just having a mental roadblock with the structure.



And just because I mentioned it, here's When I Come Around, for comparison's sake.

Key on the 3rd major words in the lines for both to get your timing.

Blink- I walk ALONE…..it was a FRIDAY night. Alone and Friday are the 2nd and 4th changes.

Green Day- Well I HEARD you crying loud. All the WAY across town SEARCHING, SOMEONE, ME


You can distinctly hear in both these songs that the lyrics are heavily accentuated to keep the driving beat. I only know because it’s exactly the way I had to learn timing to play bass and sing on both of these

 

[fishdude101101]

To me it sounds like every time a new instrument comes in (except the vocals) that's a downbeat, which is definitely an odd spot in the chord progression given that this is a 4-chord song (I V vi IV, or the minor version i VI III VII), but I think it creates kind of a rhythmic and harmonic tension, where the chords are displaced by two beats and makes the chord progression line up in a spot where our ears don't expect to hear it. The full bars of C# and D# reorient the progression to where it "should" be, and then resolves to I (F#) for the chorus. The vocal phrases not landing on 1 in the verses don't bother me too much since while it is unusual, it isn't unheard of in pop music, and to me the bass/cymbal and the drum entrances reinforce where 1 is much more than the vocals.

Directly to the OP: while F# and Gb are enharmonic (meaning they sound the same), they are not the same note, and generally you don't mix sharps with flats in chord progressions.

I've had it explained to me 50 times but I'll never understand why they aren't the same note. Mathematically the same so I can't get passed that.

 

[mambo4]

I'll never understand why they aren't the same note.

F# and Gb are different because what name you choose communicates certain implied relationships to the key, and thus the scale, and thus chords of the song.

"B, Gb, Db, Eb " I quickly parse as I , bbIV, bbIII, bV which is confusing
But had you written it as B, F#, C#, D# I would quickly parse as I,V, II III which is less confusing

We should strive to choose the less confusing way of communicating.

 

[Wasnex]

I've had it explained to me 50 times but I'll never understand why they aren't the same note.

It matters if you know and use theory. It may not matter at the most basic level...but it does matter. To understand why, you have to go down the rabbit hole a ways.

If you actually care, read on.

The key of F# major includes: F#,G#,A#,B,C#,D#,E# AFAIK, this is the key the song is actually written in.

So when you are in the key of F# major you tend to think in terms of these notes and all of the intervals that are possible using them.

For example from the song we are discussing: F#, C#, D#, B is the intervals 1, 5, 6, 4 in F# Maj. FYI, someone who regularly uses root movement analysis will generate these numbers pretty much instantly and automatically.


We could think of the song in Gb major if you like. The key of Gb major includes: Gb, Ab, Bb, Cb, Db, Eb, F,

In Gb major, the intervals 1, 5, 6, 4 translates to Gb, Db, Eb, Cb

But notice, the OP used Gb, Db, Eb, B.

To the listener, the notes Gb, Db, Eb, Cb will sound exactly the same as Gb, Db, Eb, B...assuming the musicians play them exactly the same, which is not guaranteed.

As a player using theory, if you see a note that is not part of the prevailing key center, it catches your attention.

Since we are thinking in Gb major and discussing the notes Gb, Db, Eb, B, we should immediately notice B does not belong.

You could possibly treat it as chromatic.

Then Gb, Db, Eb, B translates to 1, 5, 6, +3

As a person trained in theory, I don't expect to see a +3, so this could cause problems.

Here's why. Normally chords are built in thirds above the root. We call this tertian harmony.

Let's do the harmonization in Gb Major since that is the OP's assumed key

Here are the correct notes and intervals:

Gb, Db, Eb, Cb
1, 5, 6, 4​

1
Gb, Bb, Db, F (GbMaj7)

5
Db, F, Ab, Cb (Db7)

6
Eb, Gb, Bb, Db (Ebmin7)

4
Cb, Eb, Gb, Bb (CbMaj7)

All of the notes and chords are diatonic to Gb major .

Now let's harmonize the OP's notes.

Gb, Db, Eb, B
1, 5, 6, +3
​

I'll do the harmonization under the assumption B is a chromatic alteration...I.E. it's not diatonic...otherwise it will get even more messy.

1
Gb, Bb, Db, F (GbMaj7)

5
Db, F, Ab, Cb (Db7)

6
Eb, Gb, Bb, Db (Ebmin7)

Nothing is different so, but that is about to change .

+3
B, Db, F, Ab --Not sure what to call this, but it's what you get in the key of Gb major when you build a chord in 3rds from B.

It's certainly not the expected chord . Compare to:

4
Cb, Eb, Gb, Bb (CbMaj7)​

Essentially the root winds up being the only correct note.

Enharmonically you could say this sounds like CbMaj7
B, Eb, Gb, Bb. I wouldn't recognize the chord if I heard these intervals or saw it spelled this way. So it's not an effective way to communicate with other musicians .

I know TLDR

 

[fishdude101101]

It matters if you know and use theory. It may not matter at the most basic level...but it does matter. To understand why, you have to go down the rabbit hole a ways.

If you actually care, read on.

The key of F# major includes: F#,G#,A#,B,C#,D#,E# AFAIK, this is the key the song is actually written in.

So when you are in the key of F# major you tend to think in terms of these notes and all of the intervals that are possible using them.

For example from the song we are discussing: F#, C#, D#, B is the intervals 1, 5, 6, 4 in F# Maj. FYI, someone who regularly uses root movement analysis will generate these numbers pretty much instantly and automatically.


We could think of the song in Gb major if you like. The key of Gb major includes: Gb, Ab, Bb, Cb, Db, Eb, F,

In Gb major, the intervals 1, 5, 6, 4 translates to Gb, Db, Eb, Cb

But notice, the OP used Gb, Db, Eb, B.

To the listener, the notes Gb, Db, Eb, Cb will sound exactly the same as Gb, Db, Eb, B...assuming the musicians play them exactly the same, which is not guaranteed.

As a player using theory, if you see a note that is not part of the prevailing key center, it catches your attention.

Since we are thinking in Gb major and discussing the notes Gb, Db, Eb, B, we should immediately notice B does not belong.

You could possibly treat it as chromatic.

Then Gb, Db, Eb, B translates to 1, 5, 6, +3

As a person trained in theory, I don't expect to see a +3, so this could cause problems.

Here's why. Normally chords are built in thirds above the root. We call this tertian harmony.

Let's do the harmonization in Gb Major since that is the OP's assumed key

Here are the correct notes and intervals:

Gb, Db, Eb, Cb
1, 5, 6, 4​

1
Gb, Bb, Db, F (GbMaj7)

5
Db, F, Ab, Cb (Db7)

6
Eb, Gb, Bb, Db (Ebmin7)

4
Cb, Eb, Gb, Bb (CbMaj7)

All of the notes and chords are diatonic to Gb major .

Now let's harmonize the OP's notes.

Gb, Db, Eb, B
1, 5, 6, +3
​

I'll do the harmonization under the assumption B is a chromatic alteration...I.E. it's not diatonic...otherwise it will get even more messy.

1
Gb, Bb, Db, F (GbMaj7)

5
Db, F, Ab, Cb (Db7)

6
Eb, Gb, Bb, Db (Ebmin7)

Nothing is different so, but that is about to change .

+3
B, Db, F, Ab --Not sure what to call this, but it's what you get in the key of Gb major when you build a chord in 3rds from B.

It's certainly not the expected chord . Compare to:

4
Cb, Eb, Gb, Bb (CbMaj7)​

Essentially the root winds up being the only correct note.

Enharmonically you could say this sounds like CbMaj7
B, Eb, Gb, Bb. I wouldn't recognize the chord if I heard these intervals or saw it spelled this way. So it's not an effective way to communicate with other musicians .

I know TLDR

No, its a good explanation and thank you. My post was a bit tongue-in-cheek anyway.

A bit above my head in parts for sure. For my uses cases, historically it only matter to me back in junior high when I had to read sheet music. Real world for me today it doesn't matter, I'd never tell anyone to play a Cb, if that makes sense. Mostly because it doesn't change what I physically play.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

The transcription in the video feels right to me (i.e., it starts on the IV chord, the B). I tried to count like you describe, and it just doesn’t work for me. If I count it like in the tab, it’s easy.

Here is a short clip of that song, just slower - Intro and Verse 1.
I've clipped it to start with F#.
N.B. At the end of Verse 1, right after the lyrics, "But then I turned on the TV" the band plays 2 extra beats.
In my personal opinion, it adds nothing to the melody. It's more like, "Hey, we've started by 2 beats earlier, let's compensate it."
But, it's only my opinion on why musicians do "various" things.

P.S. There are lots of songs where musicians add extra beats for "this or that" reason.

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...0/?temp_hash=d3aaf312c39b63c016497e45f9365be3

 

[BismarckHerring]

If you hear the B as being on the first beat, then there are no extra beats, it's all 4/4 from beginning to end.

When I hear the audio example, I think I can hear it 'your' way for a moment, but by the second or third line, I hear the B chord as on the one again. So I'll stick my own interpretation.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

So I'll stick my own interpretation.

Great.

 

[Groove Master]

Your B's are a 2 beats pick-up. Chord progression start on F# from a quick listening.

 

[brianrost]

the_Ryan pretty much nails it in hihis post above.

TDirectly to the OP: while F# and Gb are enharmonic (meaning they sound the same), they are not the same note, and generally you don't mix sharps with flats in chord progressions.

This is only for people who don’t understand why sharps and flats should never be mixed.

In Gb major, the notes of the scale are:

Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F (six flats)

In F# major they are:

F# G# A# B C# D# E# (six sharps)

If the existence of notes like Cb and E# sounds weird, it shouldn’t. In any scale you can’t have both an F and a F# or a Bb and a B. A scale has to have some degree of A, B, C, D, E, F, G…no letter can be repeated. To do this, we must add sharps and flats and sometimes more than one.

C# major:

C# D# E# F# G# A# B# (seven sharps)

D# major:

D# E# F## G# A# B# C## (yes, double sharps or flats are a real thing)

That’s why most people would notate these as Db and Eb major instead.

When most people think about cycling through the circle of fifths, they switch from sharp keys to flat keys (or vice versa) when they reach either Gb or F#:

C G D A E B F# Db Ab Eb Bb F

or:

C F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb B E A D G

 

[Papageno]

I've had it explained to me 50 times but I'll never understand why they aren't the same note. Mathematically the same so I can't get passed that.

Just as in English you have words that sound the same, but have different meaning and different spelling, enharmonic notes sound the same but have different meaning (harmonically), and different spelling. Using the correct spelling helps making the meaning clear to the reader. Using incorrect spelling generates confusion about the meaning.

So spelling D# instead of Eb in a tune in G minor, for example, is a little bit like texting a girl the message "I love yew". Maybe she will think you are fond of those trees...

 

[the_Ryan]

the_Ryan pretty much nails it in hihis post above.



This is only for people who don’t understand why sharps and flats should never be mixed.

In Gb major, the notes of the scale are:

Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F (six flats)

In F# major they are:

F# G# A# B C# D# E# (six sharps)

If the existence of notes like Cb and E# sounds weird, it shouldn’t. In any scale you can’t have both an F and a F# or a Bb and a B. A scale has to have some degree of A, B, C, D, E, F, G…no letter can be repeated. To do this, we must add sharps and flats and sometimes more than one.

C# major:

C# D# E# F# G# A# B# (seven sharps)

D# major:

D# E# F## G# A# B# C## (yes, double sharps or flats are a real thing)

That’s why most people would notate these as Db and Eb major instead.

When most people think about cycling through the circle of fifths, they switch from sharp keys to flat keys (or vice versa) when they reach either Gb or F#:

C G D A E B F# Db Ab Eb Bb F

or:

C F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb B E A D G

Kinda similarly, even though G#, D#, and A# minor are all keys that technically exist (since they’re the relative minors of B, F#, and C# respectively), it’s much more common to see Ab, Eb, or Bb minor notated because even though G# minor and Ab minor are the same pitch-wise, minor keys very frequently use a raised seventh scale degree in chord progressions (short version: it’s because V > i feels stronger than v > i, I can get into it more but that’s a tangent of a tangent), meaning that in G# minor you would see frequent Fx’s (F double sharps) in the melodies and harmonies, which no one wants to read. Minor keys are kind of an exception since in both harmonic and melodic minor you will have sharps and flats coexisting, but those accidentals aren’t reflected in the key signature and the mode used still has an A, B, C, D, E, F, and G.

There are situations when writing chord progressions and melodies where you have to switch from sharps to flats (or vice-versa) because otherwise you’d be in double-sharp or double-flat city, usually when modulating to or tonicizing keys that are a major third away (like going from B major to Eb major: technically you’re modulating to the major scale of the third scale degree of B major, but writing or reading anything in D# major suuuuuucks).

To go a bit further down this tangent, once you’re playing music that really departs from traditional Western harmony and are using things like whole-tone, octatonic, or blues scales some of the rules about enharmonic pitches sounding the same but functioning differently really get thrown out the window because you’re no longer dealing with seven-note scales that have to contain a kind of every letter. At that point you’re kinda just writing parts in a way that looks best rather than any kind of “correct” because our notation system kinda breaks down pitch-wise when we’re not dealing with strictly tonal or modal music.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

This is only for people who don’t understand why sharps and flats should never be mixed.

Could you help me to figure out the following?
I'm analyzing in detail a beautiful bass-line transcription (Bass - Daryl Johnson) graciously provided to us by "devnulljp."

https://www.talkbass.com/threads/i-believe-in-you-black-dub-bass-daryl-johnson.1654705/

In the last bass note of the short excerpt, the bass "legato slides" from C to C# or Db.
Would you notate the last note as C# or Db?

Thank you.

 

[brianrost]

In the last bass note of the short excerpt, the bass "legato slides" from C to C# or Db.
Would you notate the last note as C# or Db?

Db, because of the Eb key signature.