Probably Db, although I don’t think a C# would be “incorrect” (especially if the first note in the next bar was a D, but in this case it’s not). For chromatic pitches that are outside the key/chord I think there’s a bit more discretion on the part of the person writing parts to do what looks best, and I’ve definitely seen way more egregious enharmonic spellings in published scores and parts.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Can someone explain why I can't wrap my head around this?
- Thread starter beaglesandbass
- Start date
Calebmundy
Supporting Member
- Apr 5, 2007
- 1,135
- 819
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: DNA Amplifiers, Lākland Basses
Wow so much overcomplicated analysis here. I play this song five times a week. The verse is 4 1 5 6-, the chorus is 1 5 6- 4.
My opinion could potentially change depending on what comes next.
I assumed C# makes more sense based on what I see and expect. Seems potentially like a chromatic passing tone.
However, given the next chord and note, Db makes more sense AFAIK.
Looks like a chromatic passing note between C and (I assume) D, so I would spell it C#.
Do you think in the following example, the transcriber has made a mistake?
It's from here:
I think C# actually makes more sense there despite Db being in the key signature. The simple answer is that reading diminished fourths or diminished thirds is harder than reading major thirds and major seconds, and the first beat has pitches that all sound a whole step apart, so maintaining stepwise motion visually for the last three 1/16 notes would be more important to me than any continuity with the key signature. F7b9 is also a chord that can be interpreted as an altered chord (which contains at least a b9 or #9 and the b13), and the accompanying scale for that chord is the, well, altered scale, which is technically the 7th mode of melodic minor (which I guess in this case would be F Gb Ab Bbb Cb Db Eb or E# F# G# A B C# D#). However, when writing parts or transcribing solos it's very common to not adhere strictly to those accidentals because in this case you would probably prioritize keeping the third of the chord as an A (even though it's technically the fourth scale degree of this mode) and the seventh as Eb, and then using whatever enharmonics look cleanest rather than rigidly following the key signature or associated chord-scale. Theoretically, those first four notes could be notated as Bbb Db Cb Bbb, which might be more "correct", but reading double flats or double sharps in anything that isn't a chromatic scale is super not fun.
Western music notation is as much an art as it is a science, and ultimately what looks best to our eyes is probably the best option.
IMHO no. With the given tones played over beat 1, C# to B makes more sense than Db to B IMHO.
The bass line does not fit the written key signature (Ab Maj) or the key center implied by F7b9 (Bb min). Since he's playing outside the changes at that point, different logic applies.
I am so lost on everything you genius people have said for the last three pages. Once upon a time, I thought I was somewhat smart. I wrote computer programs in machine language on punch cards in 1975. I served on the school boards and township boards. I've retired well. Talking about this topic is one thing, but y'all are typing it out. It's like reading something they found in E.T.'s guitar case. You people are amazing. Wow. Thank you to everyone.
There are rules that are actually quite simple:
- in the context of a diatonic heptatonic scale, diatonic notes are spelled such that each of the 7 notes of the scale get a different letter name.
Example: if the scale of the harmony of the moment is Ab melodic minor (to be played on an Abm6 tonic harmony), the notes would be: Ab, Bb, Cb (not B), Db (not C#), Eb, F, G.
- There is an exception to the above rule (in my view): when using the altered scale on altered dominant chord. For example for a G7alt (resolving to Cm), one may use the G altered scale, which consists of the notes of Ab melodic minor. In this case, however, the B (i.e. the major 3rd of G7) should really be spelled B and not Cb, so that we have both a Bb and a B in the scale (and no letter name "C"). The B is the 3rd of the chord, where the Bb is the b10 extension (almost universally, and improperly, called #9).
- Similarly, when using a tritone substitution, as such device relies upon enharmonic ambiguity, it is acceptable to use some enharmonic equivalent spelling. Example: if one uses Db7 as a tritone substitution of G7, it may acceptable (or even advisable) to spelled the Db7 chord as Db F Ab B instead of Db F Ab Cb, to emphasize that it will resolve to C or Cm.
- chromatic passing or appoach notes are spelled such that the chromatic note has the name of an altered note neighboring the diatonic note it resolves to.
Example: in Ab melodic minor, moving chromatically from Db to Eb: Db D Eb; from Eb to Db: Eb, Ebb, Db.
- Many people prefer to avoid double flats or sharps in spelling passing or approach notes, and use enharmonic equivalent spelling instead, and this is generally considered acceptable; doing so for diatonic notes, however, should really be avoided in my view, as it completely obscures the harmony.
- then there is the context in which the scale of the moment is simply not a diatonic heptatonic scale, so that one cannot ascribe a letter to each note of the scale (atonal music, octotonic scale, ...). In such case, there is no other rule than trying to be as readable as possible...
Last edited:
I know there is a simple explanation about the following two (kind of, identical) notations.
I personally disagree with the first one, that should absolutely be an F# in my opinion.
Ninja edit: I know this wasn't part of your question at all, but in the second measure of the second example I might notate the Db as a C#: it is the seventh of the Eb7 chord, which is a Db and not C#, but for chromatic lines I prefer to default to the appearance of stepwise motion. If this lick went down to a C or it ended right on the Db I'd probably notate it as Db, but since the line goes back up I'd prioritize showing contour.
Last edited:
It's just because I've spent many years studying and thinking about this stuff and trying to communicate it with others, and I don't know the first thing about computer programming in any language or how to serve on school boards or in local government!
I actually flirted with calling it Db (b13). But since the next note is B, C# probably makes more sense from a reading standpoint.
Harmonic analysis to justify the notes is a beyond me
. It's possible Db is technically more correct from a harmonic standpoint. But then again, there are probably multiple ways to analyze the harmony. So the most technically correct note name could depend on which harmonic analysis is chosen.Also, I would like to point out there is usually a difference between dealing with root movement (which relates to the OP's original question) and dealing with melody and altered chord extensions (which is what we are currently discussing).
AFAIK roots tend to stick more stubbornly to conventional rules. But at some level the rules can even break down in regards to the roots. Still when I see notes that don't normally go together in a conventional way, it catches my attention...or at least IMHO it should and did in this particular case.
Beyond that, I don't think the exceptions were are discussing at this level of knowledge really apply to the piece the OP is struggling with. So while this is interesting and thought provoking, perhaps it's in conflict with what the OP needs at this point.
I don't necessarily mean you should stop; only trying to help the OP understand (IMHO) the current discussion is outside the scope of his original question.
There’s nothing genius about reading notation. I learned it in elementary school music classes.
I think we should agree to disagree on this point: for me using enharmonic spelling for a chord tone (the Db here) on a strong beat is a big no-no, as is completely obscures the harmony.
By contrast, although, in principle the first D (descending chromatic passing tone between Eb and Db) should be spelled Ebb according to the general rule, this is one example of a case where enharmonic spelling (D) is acceptable for the sake of reading ease.
There are 2 mistakes: the C# should be spelled Db and the B should be spelled Cb. This is so because, except for the very end of the bar where it reverts to the natural C (perfect 5th of F7b9), the phrase actually uses the F altered scale: F Gb Ab A Cb Db Eb (1 b2 b3 3 b5 b6 b7), which contains no C# and no B.
Both chromatic notes resolve upward to the diatonic chord tone G, and should there be spelled F#.
