Double Bass The Truth About John Coltrane

[hasbeen]

I've gigged with many jazz, famous heavy-hitter musicians, including horn players. Starting in the late 70s and all throughout the 80's, they were from the hardbop school. Truth be told, I'm not a hardbop fan. The "old timer" heavy hitters I played with were all honest about the origins of hardbop. It wasn't for the enthusiast to listen and enjoy. The intended audience was other bebop musicians.

The genesis was big band musicians. Big bands would be playing at all the area clubs (NYC, Chicago etc.). After the shows, they would gather at after hour clubs to hangout and play. They would show off their skills and try to out play the next guy. ....head cutting sessions.

It was very off-putting to the general, listening public. That's why Miles' Kind of Blue album, ushering in "cool jazz", was embraced by general audiences.

 

[evanrunyon]

I prefer my contrarianism gleeful and impish.

 

[hasbeen]

I don't know how many of you have heard of alto saxist Jackie McLean, but I played with him a lot. Jackie played with Miles, Sonny Rollins, Charlie Parker etc.

He told me a funny story. He said someone came up to him and said they really like how he intentionally played "sharp" to add tension and aggression to his playing. Jackie said he never new he played sharp and it wasn't intentional.

 

[Altitude]

Why would it matter if it has broad appeal? It's immersive searching music. You become part of it when you really listen with it. Like listening to Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. Or Sonic Youth. Or Ayler. It's music that transforms you as you listen.

Whether it matters that it has broad appeal might be an interesting question to ponder, but I didn’t consider that in my point. I’d suspect it doesn’t matter because Coltrane’s status is established and preserved at this point, regardless.

 

[Root 5]

I find people like Coltrane, Charlie Parker, Bill Evans, Thelonius Monk very difficult to listen to. It isn't 'music' to me. It's just a lot of notes that have zero melody. It's not much of a stretch to say you can pretty much string any notes together and it won't sound out of place there.

 

[Altitude]

In next week’s episode we’ll discuss whether Jaco was really a bass player or if he was playing some other unclearly defined musical role while creating notes on a bass.

 

[Kenova]

I'm not sa player, I'm not jazz purist but fairly enjoy many of jazz records. Coltrane is, by far, artist with most albums in my "top 20 jazz albums"

 

[Swerve]

You've been excommunicated from St. John Will-I-Am Coltrane African Orthodox Church - Global Spiritual Community

 

[Altitude]

You've been excommunicated from St. John Will-I-Am Coltrane African Orthodox Church - Global Spiritual Community

Darn it.

 

[LowG]

…seem like a thing that would have broad appeal?

Ha! Jazz itself is a thing that does not have broad appeal! But we’re supposed to pick on the jazz players that play the less appealing portion of a not-very-appealing genre?

 

[Berniez40]

I like a lot of his stuff, and get bored by a lot of his stuff. Beauty is in the ear of the beholder. Freak it....I like Syd Barrett's solo stuff when put in the context of the fact that most of it is sketches and not final product (and definitely not jazz), however, it had to be put to vinyl quickly before his brain went away completely. Coltrane is the other side of that spectrum.
He got fired from Miles' Group because despite his early promising signs, he was too F'ed up on whatever. Instead of plowing ahead with the brain melt---he cleaned himself up, and made a real go of it. He even said that getting canned from Miles' band was the best thing that could have ever happened to him. If you've ever had to clean up your act and reinvent yourself, then you know that getting back to the fundamentals, and hashing them out over and again until you can stay sober and do them in your sleep can often lead to a little bleed over, and thus some major didactic sounding overplay as you continue the journey forward.
There are things in "A Love Supreme ."that reflect this, but there are also many strokes of shear genius hiding in there as well as within the more outside stuff. The clean up truly shines on his album with Johnny Hartman. It is reflective of a true clean up, and a lot of highly polished fundamentals. Not every step in a Journey is a beautiful one, but Coltrane definitely had more than his fair share. Just because so many worship at the altar of Coltrane does not make every note Gospel. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[bass player 53]

I don't know how many of you have heard of alto saxist Jackie McLean, but I played with him a lot. Jackie played with Miles, Sonny Rollins, Charlie Parker etc.

He told me a funny story. He said someone came up to him and said they really like how he intentionally played "sharp" to add tension and aggression to his playing. Jackie said he never new he played sharp and it wasn't intentional.

I have a lot of old vinyl Jackie. You sound like an interesting guy, and very fortunate to have played with so many greats. Yeah, I think the point you’re making is that Jackie may sound slightly out of tune to some, but he had a signature, identifiable, ‘his sound’, that is so important to a jazz artist. Like Coltrane.

 

[5StringBlues]

Thelonius Monk

Dem's fightin' woids!



( not really )

 

[wompwomp]

I find Coltrane quite listenable. As folks have pointed out he left a pretty big catalog and lived and worked through distinct developmental periods. OPs characterization is probably too broad a brush for me to agree with

 

[BassBrass]

Opinions... I was just saying to someone...Coltrane is the one musician I can listen to for hours straight just on the basis of his tone. It's deep warm and beautiful. (if I'm forced to use words) It's also a matter of historical context. No one had done what he did before (exactly) so someone had to do it (explore chords that way). It's like when Stravinsky caused a riot. A Very good thing because it shows something is happening vs the usual Nothing (peace, sleep, rest, absence of light).

I'd also mention, when Miles was forced to fire him because of lifestyle choices, he (Miles) knew he was eliminating a reason some people had for seeing him, Coltrane's endless solos; what would he do tonight? It was a Feature not a burden to the audience. I imagine like seeing Paganini might have been. Most would have been thrilled, but you know, some people have to complain about something.

 

[Ryan in PDX]

That was a clickbait title, what I’m going to say here is my opinion only, but at least informed by 55 years of life that included a substantial amount of jazz education.

Coltrane as a technician is invaluable. His understanding of the math was on a strange level and any of us can learn from what he played and wrote, intellectually. But - looking back in retrospect at his recordings and his choices as a performer:

His tone was shrill.

He took way too many choruses most of the time. His solos often began with beautiful ideas and devolved into patterns and exercises. “Impressions” is one example. Past a certain point, he sounds to me like he’s recording himself practicing.

His music is hard to listen to unless you are listening critically and with all of your attention.

I think at the time it was stylish for jazz musicians to record themselves playing 12 minute versions of songs that had 5 minutes of ideas. So some of it might have been that.

I’m not sure why I’m posting this because it could establish me as a pariah, but it’s a chat forum and I guess I’m wondering whether anyone at all agrees, and why.

No notes.

Talkbass is a discussion forum, not an echo chamber where everyone shares the same view on a given topic

False. See: Ron Carter's pickup sound! (jk/lol/etc)

Really, though... One can acknowledge and appreciate and respect a person's genius or impact or influence, without any obligation to enjoy listening to their records on repeat.

I like Coltrane, full stop. But, sometimes, well, [gestures broadly at the OP]. We can all say the same about a number of artists... The fact that it's so controversial to point things out about Trane only reinforces his importance.

 

[Michael Milner]

I like a lot of his stuff, and get bored by a lot of his stuff. Beauty is in the ear of the beholder. Freak it....I like Syd Barrett's solo stuff when put in the context of the fact that most of it is sketches and not final product (and definitely not jazz), however, it had to be put to vinyl quickly before his brain went away completely. Coltrane is the other side of that spectrum.
He got fired from Miles' Group because despite his early promising signs, he was too F'ed up on whatever. Instead of plowing ahead with the brain melt---he cleaned himself up, and made a real go of it. He even said that getting canned from Miles' band was the best thing that could have ever happened to him. If you've ever had to clean up your act and reinvent yourself, then you know that getting back to the fundamentals, and hashing them out over and again until you can stay sober and do them in your sleep can often lead to a little bleed over, and thus some major didactic sounding overplay as you continue the journey forward.
There are things in "A Love Supreme ."that reflect this, but there are also many strokes of shear genius hiding in there as well as within the more outside stuff. The clean up truly shines on his album with Johnny Hartman. It is reflective of a true clean up, and a lot of highly polished fundamentals. Not every step in a Journey is a beautiful one, but Coltrane definitely had more than his fair share. Just because so many worship at the altar of Coltrane does not make every note Gospel. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

When John left Miles' band the first time, he was hired by Thelonious Monk and stayed with Monk for a number of months. This was a very important time in John's development. Monk was very supportive. It was after his time with Monk that he returned to perform with Miles.

 

[Michael Milner]

John was an explorer. He wasn't content to rest on his laurels. Some people were interested in his journey, others weren't.

 

[lurk]

The thing about Coltrane was his conception was band deep. Same thing with Miles Davis. They created a whole way for musicians to approach sound collectively. As soloists, were those guys necessarily better than Sonny Rollins or say Freddie Hubbard? Maybe not. But their conception went beyond soloing. The best of Coltrane's and Miles's bands achieved incredible heights of music making far beyond just soloing. Listening to Coltrane's great quartet live or Miles's classic quintet with Tony, Ron and Herbie was rapturous.

 

[Guitalia]

Oh I don't know:

“His tone was shrill.

He took way too many choruses most of the time. His solos often began with beautiful ideas and devolved into patterns and exercises. “Impressions” is one example. Past a certain point, he sounds to me like he’s recording himself practicing.”

To me, it sounds like you don't care for his playing, which I would consider a dislike. But I could be wrong

I absolutely adored Clapton's soloing with Cream. Seeing them live in 1968 was revelatory.

Bought the Derek and the Dominos album shortly after release, when I learned it was Clapton's post-Blind Faith band.

To say it was a disappointment is an understatement.

Since then, the only examples of Clapton's playing I've wholeheartedly enjoyed have been clips from TV show appearances where he played his 335.

Does that mean I dislike his playing?