Can't stand roundwound strings?

[stevenA800]

I have both, they don't sound the same.

 

[AshInAmsterdam]

I use Chromes, though at €48 a set I haven't bothered changing them in 15 months now... (hey there's a guy on Youtube who might say something about that, it's a good thing I don't care what he thinks).

Several people, bassists and guitarists, who have played my bass recently have all commented on how much they love the feel of them, and they seem to comment positively on the sounds I produce from them. I have one bass with rounds, and it doesn't sound nearly as full or as exciting as those that have flats, so I don't subscribe to the idea that X type of string will produce X type of sound.

 

[Wiremessiah]

I've been playing rounds for 20 years pretty exclusively. I occasionally would put flats on a bass the first 5 years I played. Recently put a set of flats on one of my American P's, turns out I still prefer rounds.

Flats just don't give me the brightness & response I prefer. They just sound kinda dead (chromes are the only ones I've messed with though) I play through A SWR 750x & 2 Goliath III's. Everyone has their own opinion, which I totally respect. And maybe I just haven't put the right set on. Or maybe I haven't dialed my amp in with them enough.

Brightness and loudness are addictive. Its kinda like a drummer saying he tries to play quietly, but it just doesnt do the same thing for him as banging as hard as he can.

I have played with many musicians over the years, and its rare to find ones who really listen. Its hard, to play an instrument and listen to what others are doing at the same time. So what happens often is just a competition for loudness which forces bassists to want to cut through with more brightness. This is a necessity with playing with most musicians, but i am also a producer and engineer, and play different instruments as well. When you can control the dynamics of everything, especially the drums, you realize there is no need for brightness to cut. And then everything is about balance and timbre and euphony. Loudness is really like a drug, hence the loudness wars and everything being squashed flat. It doesnt make music better, in fact it just makes it dull and lifeless, but its a compulsion.
Yes its all subjective, but saying you like rounds more than flats is like saying you like heroin more than aspirin.

 

[Wiremessiah]

I use Chromes, though at €48 a set I haven't bothered changing them in 15 months now... (hey there's a guy on Youtube who might say something about that, it's a good thing I don't care what he thinks).

Several people, bassists and guitarists, who have played my bass recently have all commented on how much they love the feel of them, and they seem to comment positively on the sounds I produce from them. I have one bass with rounds, and it doesn't sound nearly as full or as exciting as those that have flats, so I don't subscribe to the idea that X type of string will produce X type of sound.

Might want to try ti jazz flats. They last a long long time, in fact i dont think theg ever die. Mine are a decade old. I bet they are the same price as well in europe as chromes.

 

[davy4575]

Brightness and loudness are addictive. Its kinda like a drummer saying he tries to play quietly, but it just doesnt do the same thing for him as banging as hard as he can.

I have played with many musicians over the years, and its rare to find ones who really listen. Its hard, to play an instrument and listen to what others are doing at the same time. So what happens often is just a competition for loudness which forces bassists to want to cut through with more brightness. This is a necessity with playing with most musicians, but i am also a producer and engineer, and play different instruments as well. When you can control the dynamics of everything, especially the drums, you realize there is no need for brightness to cut. And then everything is about balance and timbre and euphony. Loudness is really like a drug, hence the loudness wars and everything being squashed flat. It doesnt make music better, in fact it just makes it dull and lifeless, but its a compulsion.
Yes its all subjective, but saying you like rounds more than flats is like saying you like heroin more than aspirin.

Not really. The bright end of the bass may just appeal to people. I like basses to sound like a piano string, with tons of articulation and clarity of the upper harmonics and register. There are certainly instances of this long before the loudness wars started in music. Pink Floyd "One of these days" is a classic example, another would be Most of Joy Divisions work, which started in the late '70's. Even more recent bands that display a large range of dynamics - Tool, if ever there was a bass tone that I favor, that is it. There are certainly examples of that. And quite the contrary in most current pop metal and hard rock, the individual notes and character of the bass can not be heard. The bass is burried intentionally but its not due to volume, its due to downtuning and having the guitar, vox and and drums using most of the available frequencies. Usually the bass gets sent down to lower frequencies, the kick drum is synthetically place up high to give the listener a representation of it, and the guitar takes up the frequencies that the bass naturally lands at. Goes back to Spectors wall of sound technique. It sucks for a bassist.

 

[jwilson67]

Brightness and loudness are addictive. Its kinda like a drummer saying he tries to play quietly, but it just doesnt do the same thing for him as banging as hard as he can.

I have played with many musicians over the years, and its rare to find ones who really listen. Its hard, to play an instrument and listen to what others are doing at the same time. So what happens often is just a competition for loudness which forces bassists to want to cut through with more brightness. This is a necessity with playing with most musicians, but i am also a producer and engineer, and play different instruments as well. When you can control the dynamics of everything, especially the drums, you realize there is no need for brightness to cut. And then everything is about balance and timbre and euphony. Loudness is really like a drug, hence the loudness wars and everything being squashed flat. It doesnt make music better, in fact it just makes it dull and lifeless, but its a compulsion.
Yes its all subjective, but saying you like rounds more than flats is like saying you like heroin more than aspirin.

What you've said it true to an extent. You don't necessarily need brightness to cut through. In fact, what cuts through more than anything are the mids - especially the low mids.
That being said, you're never going to get a Geddy Lee, Chris Squire, or John Entwistle sound from flats. It just won't happen. There is a grind that rounds can achieve that flats cannot. I mean, JE worked with Rotosound to develop the roundwound into a usable string because he was dissatisfied with the flat sound. Rounds are the most popular string nowadays because of their versatility.

 

[primusfan1989]

I really can't stand the feel of roundwound strings. I've got three full scale basses with flats and two shorty's with ground wound (would update them to flats but I hardly play them and at $60 per set i'm too cheap to change them). The only bass with rounds is my ABG which never gets played.

Whenever I try out basses at shops now it just keeps reminding me of how much nicer it is to play a bass with flats........

I can sympathize with you,not a fan of roundwound bass tones and really dont like they way they feel however Im a believer in certain instrument will shine with certain strings. I have flats on my P and fretless dean, my jazz basses sound the best with rounds hands down. I tried several sets of flats ( labellas TIs chromes)on those basses and they never sounded right, on a whim i put on dadarrio nickle rounds on one and it came to life. I tried going with labella flats(my prefered string) one more time and which confirms what i felt (in my mind that is, this is a pretty subjective subject) that my jazz basses need rounds to sound the best the could.
As much as i wish it wasnt the case, I gave in to the will of the instrument. Id prefer the feel and tension of flats but the bass said "yuck". Even with cheap rounds the bass sings and resonates like it never could with flats. I guess im a little superstitous or something but since this experience I tried to let the instrument speak to me, keep an open mind in regards to string brands, styles, gauges and so on, you never know what magic combination you might find

 

[BAG]

Brightness and loudness are addictive. Its kinda like a drummer saying he tries to play quietly, but it just doesnt do the same thing for him as banging as hard as he can.

I have played with many musicians over the years, and its rare to find ones who really listen. Its hard, to play an instrument and listen to what others are doing at the same time. So what happens often is just a competition for loudness which forces bassists to want to cut through with more brightness. This is a necessity with playing with most musicians, but i am also a producer and engineer, and play different instruments as well. When you can control the dynamics of everything, especially the drums, you realize there is no need for brightness to cut. And then everything is about balance and timbre and euphony. Loudness is really like a drug, hence the loudness wars and everything being squashed flat. It doesnt make music better, in fact it just makes it dull and lifeless, but its a compulsion.
Yes its all subjective, but saying you like rounds more than flats is like saying you like heroin more than aspirin.

If i could "like" this more than once i would. I could blather on for ages about how the loudness wars have ruined a lot of recordings.

I go to a mates place to drink and jam about once a week. A lead guitarist who joins us semi- regularly is always too loud while complaining he can't hear himself well enough. When setting levels at the start of the night he seems to think that i don't know that he has his guitar set fairly quietly and then proceeds to turn up a gradually all night. It's gotten much better since i got a Soundcraft Ui12. Not only can i see the levels on each channels' VU meter but we record each song and have a listen during breaks. He has since stopped complaining about not being able to hear himself.

 

[CapnSev]

Lots of responses in this thread, you hit a nerve!

I'm with you though. I actually really like the sound and response of rounds, especially dead rounds. However, I've been playing bass for 20 years and still to this day, get blisters on my fingers from rounds. I don't know why, and I've tried it all and I give up. Flats it is.

I've learned to love flats though, especially in a mix.

 

[AshInAmsterdam]

Might want to try ti jazz flats. They last a long long time, in fact i dont think theg ever die. Mine are a decade old. I bet they are the same price as well in europe as chromes.

But then I'd have to buy them too

These chromes don't sound or feel bad at all, I have no idea how long they'll stay that way but compared to my days playing guitar where I'd change strings every week or two at most, they're holding out well.

 

[jwilson67]

If i could "like" this more than once i would. I could blather on for ages about how the loudness wars have ruined a lot of recordings.

I go to a mates place to drink and jam about once a week. A lead guitarist who joins us semi- regularly is always too loud while complaining he can't hear himself well enough. When setting levels at the start of the night he seems to think that i don't know that he has his guitar set fairly quietly and then proceeds to turn up a gradually all night. It's gotten much better since i got a Soundcraft Ui12. Not only can i see the levels on each channels' VU meter but we record each song and have a listen during breaks. He has since stopped complaining about not being able to hear himself.

Loudness has nothing to do with properly setting frequency ranges. There are things you are going to get from a roundwound string that simply aren't possible with flats. Bassists began using rounds in the 70's because they wanted to go beyond what flatwounds were capable of.
The type of windings a string uses has very little to do with finding the instrument's place in a mix.

 

[ThudThudThud]

I guess it comes down to the sound you want.
I need lots of tones for home recording. I've been in 'set-up and maintenance' mode lately so everything has relatively new (in the case of Chromes) or new strings.
ABG w/ tapewounds
P w/ Chromes
P w/ rounds NPS
PJ Fretless w/ rounds SS
PJ Active/Passive with rounds NPS
J w/ Chromes
J w/ rounds NPS

No two of these sound the same (well, I guess the PJ Active/Passive can do a pretty good P).

But if flats gives you the sound you want, go for it.

 

[jwilson67]

Every type of string has it's place in particular musical genres. I have my 5 string set up with Cobalt rounds. I'm thinking of stringing up my ESP Jazz with some flats though for tunes like Knock On Wood and Beatles and Stones.

 

[BAG]

Loudness has nothing to do with properly setting frequency ranges.

I agree..... and that's the point we were making.

Too many people simply keep turning up when they can't hear themselves properly when what they really need is to understand frequencies and how each instrument sits in a mix. Some people feel they need fresh rounds to achieve those frequencies..... in many cases they are right..... and in some cases they just like being heard more rather than sitting in a mix well.

 

[Gab124]

Brightness and loudness are addictive. Its kinda like a drummer saying he tries to play quietly, but it just doesnt do the same thing for him as banging as hard as he can.

I have played with many musicians over the years, and its rare to find ones who really listen. Its hard, to play an instrument and listen to what others are doing at the same time. So what happens often is just a competition for loudness which forces bassists to want to cut through with more brightness. This is a necessity with playing with most musicians, but i am also a producer and engineer, and play different instruments as well. When you can control the dynamics of everything, especially the drums, you realize there is no need for brightness to cut. And then everything is about balance and timbre and euphony. Loudness is really like a drug, hence the loudness wars and everything being squashed flat. It doesnt make music better, in fact it just makes it dull and lifeless, but its a compulsion.
Yes its all subjective, but saying you like rounds more than flats is like saying you like heroin more than aspirin.

Truth - when playing certain genres of music my P with flats is just where its at. I don't like a really bright bass though with rounds, I prefer to frequency slot under the guitars and just above the kick. With that said, rounds give a certain tone more than frequency for me that I like the way it sounds in relation to other instruments - to me they have more air in the tone and a different kind of character,, i like to hear the winds on the string but not necessarily in a bright way. In the end its all good cause art has so many ways to express ones self.

 

[5StringBlues]

I like tacos.

 

[Wiremessiah]

The type of windings a string uses has very little to do with finding the instrument's place in a mix.

Of course it does. Roundwounds are brighter and thus louder. Brightness and loudness are the keys to mixing. Since they are scientifically proven to be addicitive, a good engineer and musician or composer or conductor must learn to control the impulse for more loudness and brightness. Its not easy to do, it takes a lot of experience. Because the a/b test is a widely used, yet misguided tool of the engineer , musician and everyone else.

Ever hear of the pepsi challege of the 80s? Pepsi exploited a phenomenon of human psychology and perception. They realized that pepsi woild taste better than coke if given in small sips, because pepsi is sweeter. Thus people chose pepsi over coke. But when scientists actually did double blind tests with larger amounts, the advantage was negated.
So anything sweeter, or in this case louder or brighter are better in comparison, but not in the absolute. If you did blind tests of short samples of flats vs rounds, i bet rounds would win. But if you did entire mixes. It would be different.

Yes its a reality that all things equal, some people just prefer rounds, but i think the popularity of rounds over flats is due in large part to brightness and addiction to loudness.

 

[jwilson67]

I agree..... and that's the point we were making.

Too many people simply keep turning up when they can't hear themselves properly when what they really need is to understand frequencies and how each instrument sits in a mix. Some people feel they need fresh rounds to achieve those frequencies..... in many cases they are right..... and in some cases they just like being heard more rather than sitting in a mix well.

The irony of that is that I think it's actually harder for a roundwound to be heard in a mix in many ways. Generally the mids are more scooped than a flat for instance. The flip side of that is I think rounds are more eq-able.

 

[jwilson67]

Of course it does. Roundwounds are brighter and thus louder. Brightness and loudness are the keys to mixing. Since they are scientifically proven to be addicitive, a good engineer and musician or composer or conductor must learn to control the impulse for more loudness and brightness. Its not easy to do, it takes a lot of experience. Because the a/b test is a widely used, yet misguided tool of the engineer , musician and everyone else.

Ever hear of the pepsi challege of the 80s? Pepsi exploited a phenomenon of human psychology and perception. They realized that pepsi woild taste better than coke if given in small sips, because pepsi is sweeter. Thus people chose pepsi over coke. But when scientists actually did double blind tests with larger amounts, the advantage was negated.
So anything sweeter, or in this case louder or brighter are better in comparison, but not in the absolute. If you did blind tests of short samples of flats vs rounds, i bet rounds would win. But if you did entire mixes. It would be different.

Yes its a reality that all things equal, some people just prefer rounds, but i think the popularity of rounds over flats is due in large part to brightness and addiction to loudness.

It's Bryan Beller's argument, which I agree with that your strings should start with as much sparkle and bite as you can muster so that it can be toned down rather EQ'ing the treble back in.

 

[davy4575]

Of course it does. Roundwounds are brighter and thus louder. Brightness and loudness are the keys to mixing. Since they are scientifically proven to be addicitive, a good engineer and musician or composer or conductor must learn to control the impulse for more loudness and brightness. Its not easy to do, it takes a lot of experience. Because the a/b test is a widely used, yet misguided tool of the engineer , musician and everyone else.

Ever hear of the pepsi challege of the 80s? Pepsi exploited a phenomenon of human psychology and perception. They realized that pepsi woild taste better than coke if given in small sips, because pepsi is sweeter. Thus people chose pepsi over coke. But when scientists actually did double blind tests with larger amounts, the advantage was negated.
So anything sweeter, or in this case louder or brighter are better in comparison, but not in the absolute. If you did blind tests of short samples of flats vs rounds, i bet rounds would win. But if you did entire mixes. It would be different.

Yes its a reality that all things equal, some people just prefer rounds, but i think the popularity of rounds over flats is due in large part to brightness and addiction to loudness.

As an engineer, your purpose is to document the music, to record it. Not to throw your own subject feelings into it. If a musician chooses a certain bass tone or drum tone or guitar tone and a band has that incorporated into their sound, who are you to change that based upon where you personally like a bass to sit in a mix or sound a certain way. Ive worked with engineers over the years who held that attitude and we ceased working with them the minute it reared its ugly head. Brighter does not equal louder. It equals brighter. Some people like that sound, others dont, as evidenced by the thread itself. If everyone liked brighter sounding basses, there wouldnt be a bunch of flatwound fans posting threads about it.