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Carol Kaye

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#21
Mel Monihan said:
Ms. Kaye suggests that the Detroit boys were recording in L.A. long before the "move" to L.A. ,and that most of the people who played on those recordings did so "under the table", and that it was widespread.I believe she states 10,000 recording dates in her bio. Carol played on many T.V. and movie scores as well as artists recordings.Go to her site for the complete rundown, it is pretty staggering to see what she has done in her carear.I believe Treena knows her quite well and is very familiar with her backround.
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This is actually frustrating! Yes, she does have a long list, but I know she didn't play on all those songs. I could make a huge list of songs, doesn't mean I played on them all. "Light My Fire" by the Doors, she didn't play that either! It wasn't a keyboard bass, they really did use a bass player, but his name is Jerry Scheff. What I find amusing is the number of people who were "slapped", but still come to her defense. I think if the thread was titled different, say perhaps "Carol Kaye... Disputed Songs" maybe I would have more who agree with me, but I guess I ended up in the Carol Kaye appreciation thread. I never doubted her playing abilities and the list of stuff she played is long. She is an accomplished bass player, but she didn't play all those songs. This keeps the other players from getting the credit they deserve.
 
#22
I have one ? and I'm not here to cause any problems Carol is a friend of mine and one of the most talented persons to pick up the Electric bass along with James Jamerson(whom I think is also a great talent as well as an Innovator).I have seen Carol perform more times than I can remember(I played with her once while she played guitar)and she is a killer Groover and she plays Funk(when she has to with a Capital F)I don't get into who played what and I could care less,I would just like to know for those who say with so much conviction that Carol didn't play the tunes she says she did how do you know she didn't?

p.s.

Carol and Chuck Rainey are neck and neck as being the Most recorded bassist in History.
 
#23
Hey, whether you believe she played on songs or not, there is a huge gigantic list of great songs that Carol undisputedly played on, many which are some of the most memorable basslines in history. Not only that, but before she played bass, there was a huge list of songs she played guitar on! She was on guitar for almost every Phil Spector song ever recorded in the 50's and early 60's.

As for why people who have been spanked by her still come to her defense, it's because this whole Motown thing is unfairly causing people to lose sight of the fact that she is, indeed, one of the two or three most recorded bassists in history, and has done more to teach people how to play electric bass than anyone. And regardless of whether you believe she played on certain songs or not, or whether someone thinks she's a crotchety old lady, you can't take away her place in history. She earned it. And at 70 years old, she will still out and out smoke 99% of us Talkbass talkers on the bass. And the 1% she won't smoke are Steve Lawson and Michael Manring ;)
 
#24
This has been discussed so many times on TB over the last 7-8 years that it almost elicits a visible groan!! :hmm:

I don't know the answer but the things I've read around her over the last few years, have made me suspsicious of anything Carol Kaye says and to think that her own opinion of herself is considerably higher than anybody else's!! ;)
 
#25
Fact: Carol Kaye has played bass on many hit songs.
Fact: James Jamerson has played bass on many hit songs.
Fact: Both are/were monster players.
Fact: Carol Kaye claims to have played on the hit versions of Bernadette and IWMTLH.
Fact: James Jamerson is not able to refute her claims.

Now here is where it gets fuzzy:

Carol claims these tunes to be hers James is dead and studio records were less than stellar back then. Carol expects everyone to take her word for it because it's in her log book. People involved in the recording of these tunes claim that she wasn't used on the hit sessions. Carol has done and said some things that cause many to question her claims. As soon as this happens she litigates and claims sexism and/or racism as the reason why she hasn't officially gotten her due on the Motown stuff in question. I'm sure that she felt slighted by the whole SITSOM thang as well.

My opinion: I will not deny Carol her place in music history. She is a talent. No doubt. She has played on many great songs. But, upon considering the information available from both sides I feel that she is doing a disservice to the memory of James Jamerson and his family and I find this need for attention on her part to be completely unprofessional and immature. Will she gain financially claiming these songs or is she gaining more for her ego? What a shame huh? I'll always remember Jamerson as the unknown bass monster that never got the recognition he deserved during his lifetime and when Carol Kaye is gone I will remember her as a flaky egomaniac.

My $. 02

Thanks for listening....
 
#26
Bruce Lindfield said:
I don't know the answer but the things I've read around her over the last few years, have made me suspsicious of anything Carol Kaye says and to think that her own opinion of herself is considerably higher than anybody else's!! ;)
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It's entirely conceivable that she played on the tune but it wasn't the track that was released. There's a another thread where there are TB'rs that can't even talk about stuff that they played on or they would be sued. If you know anything, you know that if it is/was written on a chart she could play it and is fully capable of playing any of those lines. Keep in mind she was working day in and day out doing sessions for years.

As far as her opinion of herself goes, she could easily outplay you, read stuff and improvise over stuff that you can't even begin to wrap your head around. In light of that, what does your opinion even mean? :D
 
#27
Mr.Phil said:
I know who she is, but I take issue with her credibility... She claims to have played bass on some very well known tunes that Jamerson did. She tries to take credit for classic Jamerson lines. Just look at her list of bass songs. I don't doubt she is a good bass player, I just think its wrong to try to take credit for lines she didn't create.
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She played on Pet Sounds, to name just one project.

That's more than enough cred, IMO.
 
#28
Well, this will be my last post in this thread becuase I feel like I'm wasting my breath. Let me just say that my issue has nothing to do with how well Carol Kaye plays. I have no doubt that she is better than me and always will be. I do not deny that she has played on more records than I ever will. I believe she is great player, but she did not play those recordings in question, at least not the versions that were released. Claiming that she did is wrong because she doesn't even state that she may not be the bass player playing in the released recording. On her list, she mentions that 4 other bass players claimed to have played on the Elvis stuff she did. Why not add a disclaimer about Jamerson? Anyway, I find it disturbing that people won't open up their ears and listen, they instead go by the list. Just because she has played some great stuff does not mean that people should worship her and believe her every claim. With that I'm done with this topic, I'm out of energy... Believe what you like and I'll do the same :spit:
 
#30
Basshole said:
Bingo. She needs to stop claiming fame from others. She has more than enough fine work to be proud of without trying to steal anything from Jamerson, or others.
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Basshole all you want ;), but try not to be so judgemental and melodramatic. Stealing? There's nothing to steal, no money, nothing, really.
 
#34
Jamerson has enough legacy for 5 bass players. So does Carol. Neither of them are in any danger of being forgotten any time soon. And Carol has only seen her legacy tarnished ever so slightly. Really, I think it's a non-issue. Carol has provided enough evidence that shows she was very much a part of Motown recordings in California. That's good enough for me.
 
#35
Phil Smith said:
That a couple of tunes is going to totally eradicate? Totally overblown IMO, in light of how the industry operates.
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I don't recall saying anything would be totally eradicated. Was that the question?

That appears to be a totally overblown answer;)



If it's no big deal for Jamerson IYO, the obvious question is...

why is it for Carol?

:hmm:

Again, the issue was that there was nothing to steal... I stand by my answer.
 
#36
Phil Smith said:
It's entirely conceivable that she played on the tune but it wasn't the track that was released. There's a another thread where there are TB'rs that can't even talk about stuff that they played on or they would be sued. If you know anything, you know that if it is/was written on a chart she could play it and is fully capable of playing any of those lines. Keep in mind she was working day in and day out doing sessions for years.

As far as her opinion of herself goes, she could easily outplay you, read stuff and improvise over stuff that you can't even begin to wrap your head around. In light of that, what does your opinion even mean? :D
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Well I wasn't expressing my own opinion - just summarising previous discussions around here and what impression they had given me! :hmm:

As to my own opinion - I like a lot of things she has done - the Bulllit sound track was one of my favs - but I don't really like her playing, generally and that's just a matter of personal taste - which surely I am allowed, no matter what my own skill level ( or maybe not according to Phil...:hmm: )

To me it's like Steely Dan - do you prefer Walter Becker's bass lines or Chuck Rainey's - give me 4-5 seconds to think about it ;)

It's the same for me - do you prefer Carol Kaye's bass lines or James Jamerson's - no contest!!

I like, what I like!! :)
 
#37
I never could understand this Jamerson/Kaye argument. Wasn't there 10 people AT LEAST in the room to say who played on the record? How hard is it to get to the bottom of it?

Anyway... Carol Kaye is one of the most prolific session players ever, I've ordered some stuff from her website before and she sends the list of EVERYTHING she's EVER played on when you order something. It's amazing. She also sends copies of royalty stubs from various projects, very odd.... but hey, it's cool to look at.
 
#38
Brad Johnson said:
I don't recall saying anything would be totally eradicated. Was that the question?

That appears to be a totally overblown answer;)
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No you didn't say totally, I did. You also didn't ask a question, you provided an answer. Now if you're referring to what someone else asked that's a different story entirely. My question for you is what do you think the impact is or will be to his legacy?

If it's no big deal for Jamerson IYO, the obvious question is...

why is it for Carol?

:hmm:
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There could be a myriad of reasons why it's a big deal to Carol and one of them is that she did play on a record that may or may not have been released, remixed, whatever. I wasn't there, so I can't really challenge her especially when she's known to have done that type of work on a day to day basis and perfectly capable of playing the part. Also the lack of financial gain makes it a stretch to say that she's stealing.

Again, the issue was that there was nothing to steal... I stand by my answer.
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And I stand by mine...Nothing to steal.
 
#40
Phil Smith said:
No you didn't say totally, I did. You also didn't ask a question, you provided an answer. Now if you're referring to what someone else asked that's a different story entirely. My question for you is what do you think the impact is or will be to his legacy?



There could be a myriad of reasons why it's a big deal to Carol and one of them is that she did play on a record that may or may not have been released, remixed, whatever. I wasn't there, so I can't really challenge her especially when she's known to have done that type of work on a day to day basis and perfectly capable of playing the part. Also the lack of financial gain makes it a stretch to say that she's stealing.



And I stand by mine...Nothing to steal.
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Only if you're being literal-minded. Money and physical objects are not the only things that can be stolen. There is such a thing as stealing credit.
 
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