Carol Kaye

[Brad Johnson]

Only if you're being literal-minded. Money and physical objects are not the only things that can be stolen. There is such a thing as stealing credit.

And that's the heart of this matter... alledgedly stealing credit.

 

[Brad Johnson]

No you didn't say totally, I did. You also didn't ask a question, you provided an answer. Now if you're referring to what someone else asked that's a different story entirely. My question for you is what do you think the impact is or will be to his legacy?

In the big picture the only legacy it has hurt is hers. People know what Jamerson sounds like.

There could be a myriad of reasons why it's a big deal to Carol and one of them is that she did play on a record that may or may not have been released, remixed, whatever. I wasn't there, so I can't really challenge her especially when she's known to have done that type of work on a day to day basis and perfectly capable of playing the part. Also the lack of financial gain makes it a stretch to say that she's stealing.

If that really is her story, I'd challenge her for being silly.


Frankly, if that's her position (played on records that weren't the hits that the public heard), what's her point? That she got hired to play on tunes people didn't hear? Of course not... she's clearly claiming the hits.

It'd be like me auditioning for Weather Report and recording "Birdland", right before Jaco walks in, then claiming the song on my resume'.

I've asked this before and I've never gotten an answer, maybe you can provide your opinion on it:

If she could play like Jamerson back then, why does she no longer sound remotely like him?

Stealing and financial gain are tied together in your mind?
There are other things that can be stolen... like part of someone else's legacy.

And I stand by mine...Nothing to steal.

Of course.

 

[JimmyM]

Brad, when Carol starts playing one of her old songs nowadays, I think she sounds as much like she did in the old days. She certainly hasn't lost any skill. However, she doesn't really like pop music and only did it for the money. She's much more of a jazz musician, so when she plays her own stuff nowadays, it's old school jazz.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Brad, when Carol starts playing one of her old songs nowadays, I think she sounds as much like she did in the old days. She certainly hasn't lost any skill. However, she doesn't really like pop music and only did it for the money. She's much more of a jazz musician, so when she plays her own stuff nowadays, it's old school jazz.

I agree, she still sounds like she sounds... never said otherwise.

... and she doesn't sound like Jamerson, she sounds like Carol Kaye.

 

[jerry]

Jamerson was also a jazz cat!

 

[Phil Smith]

In the big picture the only legacy it has hurt is hers. People know what Jamerson sounds like.

I like the way you state this matter of factly when Jamerson and Babbit can't even distinguish how each other sound. Oh, that's right, they play the same style so they could be mistaken for one another. But wait, no one sounds like Jamerson. I'm so confused now.

I don't think it hurts her legacy at all with the staggering amount of work she's done. Which brings up my point; What could possibly be in it for her to lie about a couple of tunes out of all the tunes she's played on? Is she a wanna be funk/R&B player? It just doesn't make sense to me. There's nothing to gain. In the abscence of those tunes, she's still kill'n.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I like the way you state this matter of factly when Jamerson and Babbit can't even distinguish how each other sound. Oh, that's right, they play the same style so they could be mistaken for one another. But wait, no one sounds like Jamerson. I'm so confused now.

I don't think it hurts her legacy at all with the staggering amount of work she's done. Which brings up my point; What could possibly be in it for her to lie about a couple of tunes out of all the tunes she's played on? Is she a wanna be funk/R&B player? It just doesn't make sense to me. There's nothing to gain. In the abscence of those tunes, she's still kill'n.

Then you obviously haven't been paying attention, no offense intended. If you don't see that, regardless of who played what, this whole episode has garnered a lot of bad will towards Carol Kaye that didn't previously exist...



And that IS a fact. That statement makes no judgement about who did what, it goes to the backlash that exists since. Haven't YOU noticed a backlash?


As far as why would she lie, beats me. AFAIK Jamerson's work isn't the only tunes she may have errantly claimed. Didn't she claim "Son of a Preacher Man?". Did she play on the RELEASED VERSION? If not, why do you think she would say that?

 

[johnvice]

First I'm a huge fan of James Jamerson and the early Mowtown (pre 1970)

That said, it was the early 1970's Motown that initially got me interested in music and playing bass. Actually it was watching the Satruday morning cartoon "Jackson 5" in 1971 and thinking the bass line for the show's theme, "ABC" was cool.

I had the opportunity to speak with Carol, told her my "ABC" story above and question who played bass on it. She was certain it was Bob West.

As I reserached this, historical evidence pointed to Wilton Felder. This was confirmed to me directly from Alan "Dr. Licks" Slutsky.

To anyone but Motown diehards like me, the names Bob West. and Wilton Felder mean nothing. As Carol has acheived name brand recognition as being a session musician (and musical educator), she would have no reason or intent to lie on such a trivial matter. I attribute it to her memory failing not necesarily out of a medical condition. To give credit where credit is due, she played on hundreds, probably thousands, of recording sessions over decades. Looking at the sheer volume of her msuical output, I can see where she just would not remember.

To give Alan Slutsky credit where credit is due, "Standing In The Shadows of Motown" (the book) should be essential practicing for bassists. He presents his arguement on Carol's Motown involvement ina very factual way that encourage the reader to look (and listen) to the facts.

 

[Brad Johnson]

First I'm a huge fan of James Jamerson and the early Mowtown (pre 1970)

That said, it was the early 1970's Motown that initially got me interested in music and playing bass. Actually it was watching the Satruday morning cartoon "Jackson 5" in 1971 and thinking the bass line for the show's theme, "ABC" was cool.

I had the opportunity to speak with Carol, told her my "ABC" story above and question who played bass on it. She was certain it was Bob West.

As I reserached this, historical evidence pointed to Wilton Felder. This was confirmed to me directly from Alan "Dr. Licks" Slutsky.

To anyone but Motown diehards like me, the names Bob West. and Wilton Felder mean nothing. As Carol has acheived name brand recognition as being a session musician (and musical educator), she would have no reason or intent to lie on such a trivial matter. I attribute it to her memory failing not necesarily out of a medical condition. To give credit where credit is due, she played on hundreds, probably thousands, of recording sessions over decades. Looking at the sheer volume of her msuical output, I can see where she just would not remember.

To give Alan Slutsky credit where credit is due, "Standing In The Shadows of Motown" (the book) should be essential practicing for bassists. He presents his arguement on Carol's Motown involvement ina very factual way that encourage the reader to look (and listen) to the facts.

Failing memory is one thing. She's adamant about the fact that she played on the hits, in spite of any proof to the contrary. There isn't any wiggle room for her being wrong, everyone else is according to her.

Is it possible she thinks she sounds identical to Jamerson? Or I guess I should say "sounded" because I've heard nothing Jamerson-esque in the years since those sessions. If someone has some examples I'd love to hear them.


BTW lots of people know Wilton Felder as one of the frontmen of The Crusader. They also know him from his bass work with Steely Dan.

 

[cassanova]

There is a mega thread on this very topic floating around the forum. In fact, if you had read the FAQ you'd see its there. I'm closing this one until I have time to merge the two together.