Carvin: What's the verdict?

[mgood]

You guys would do yourselves a favor if you made this more clear in both your catalogs and in the documentation included with your products.

Ok, I can agree with that.
But both in the manual and on the back of the amp, it says 4-ohm minimum for the bridge output. And the bridge switch is recessed into the chassis so it won't get turned on by accidently bumping something. Each of the speaker cabs have the impedence printed near the input.

You could also offer 8-ohm versions of your cabs, and players who want to run bridged/parallel can simply order a pair of 8-ohm cabs for their stack.

The RL410T (4x10) is an 8-ohm cab. And the BRX10 (4x10), BRX12 (2x12), and BRX18 (1x18) are all 8-ohm cabs. Any two of those will make a 4-ohm load and you can bridge into any one of thsoe or into any combination of two of those. The RL810T (8x10), RL210T (2x10), RL115 (1x15), and RL118 (1x18) are all 4-ohm cabs. You can bridge into any one of those. We also sell the RC210 "Red Eye" combo. It's just an RL210T and a R600 put together in one cabinet. The R600 has a biamp switch on the front panel and a crossover frequency control. But you can not biamp with just this combo. In order to use that feature, you would have to add another cab such as a 1x15 or 1x18. These heads are used with a variety of cabinet configurations. They have a lot of built-in features to accomodate many different setups. Not every feature can be used with every speaker combination. I'm sorry if you feel you were mislead, but yes, a certain amount of basic impedence knowledge is assumed.

I would be happy to help talk someone through how to set up their rig. Just give me a call.
I'm there from 9:30 to 6:00 Pacific Time Mon-Tue, Thu-Fri, and 8:00 to 4:00 Pacific on Sat.
Also, I can usually be contacted on Carvin's discussion forum, often on my days off and after hours.

 

[funkmuffin]

I have as my only amp a Carvin Cyclops combo (R600 head biamped into 2 8"s and a 15) It sounds really good, but I've had a small problem with the compressor "sticking" on. It jsut won't shut off, when I've never even turned it on.

No big issue, though, as its under warranty, and Carvin was really great about setting me up with service.

Here's where it gets good, though. I had to get hold of something to use while my head is in CA for about a month. I picked up a used InterM power amp and a very old Peavey Probass 1000 preamp, and plugged em into the Cyclops cab. WOW!!! The power amp is putting out a little more power than the R600, so that could be part of it, and the pre has a crossover, so I'm still running biamped.

The point of this diatribe is that the cabinet sounds AWESOME, and I'm not so sure about the head now. I think it might be the built-in mid-scoop in the Carvin head, absent from the late-eighties Peavey pre. So if I'm just finally hearing a midrange components of my sound that I haven't heard before, that might be skewing my perception a bit.

I'm thinking about selling the R600 when its back and replacing the Peavey with a new preamp that counld run truly flat. One thing is for sure -- The Carvin cabinet ROCKS.

 

[bigbeefdog]

Ok, I can agree with that.
But both in the manual and on the back of the amp, it says 4-ohm minimum for the bridge output.

Not exactly. What it actually says on the amp (I'm reading off the back of my R600 here), is "Bridge Only - Full Range 4ohm Minimum". This wording is placed over *two* 1/4" speaker outputs.

It is quite easy to assume (as I initially did), that this means 4 ohms *per cabinet*. After all, many heads can handle a 2-ohm connected load. Only when my R600 started to heat up, and I dug into the documentation, did I realize what was actually happening; that the 4 ohm markings referred to *total connected load*.

The RL410T (4x10) is an 8-ohm cab. And the BRX10 (4x10), BRX12 (2x12), and BRX18 (1x18) are all 8-ohm cabs. Any two of those will make a 4-ohm load and you can bridge into any one of thsoe or into any combination of two of those. The RL810T (8x10), RL210T (2x10), RL115 (1x15), and RL118 (1x18) are all 4-ohm cabs. You can bridge into any one of those. We also sell the RC210 "Red Eye" combo. It's just an RL210T and a R600 put together in one cabinet. The R600 has a biamp switch on the front panel and a crossover frequency control. But you can not biamp with just this combo. In order to use that feature, you would have to add another cab such as a 1x15 or 1x18. These heads are used with a variety of cabinet configurations. They have a lot of built-in features to accomodate many different setups. Not every feature can be used with every speaker combination. I'm sorry if you feel you were mislead, but yes, a certain amount of basic impedence knowledge is assumed.

Read that paragraph of yours again. Really, man - read it. Clear violation of the KISS principle.

I understand it. You understand it. Most TalkBass denizens understand it. But do you really think that each and every one of your purchasers understands it? Do you think the 15-year-old who saves up money from his after-school job to order a Carvin rig understands it?

Here's a tip - the ones that don't are likely to become your service department's headaches, and subsequently will be authoring "Carvin Sucks" messages on Internet bulletin boards. Not the best thing for your reputation, to say the least.

As I said, it needs to be more clearly explained. Particularly when you're selling a packaged "stack" which, if connected in parallel and run bridged, presents a danger to the head included in the package.

FYI, I have BSEE and MSEE degrees in electrical engineering. I don't bring this up in any sort of attempt to impress you; I only bring it up to make clear that I'm not lacking in "basic impedance knowledge", as you suggested. Because I do understand these things, I was able to realize what was happening *before* I did irreparable damage - others may not be so lucky.

Bottom line, the documentation and markings on these amps are very confusing. Do note that the two posters immediately after me in this thread agreed with my comments about low impedance loads, and one of them mentioned that he burned up his RedLine head with a speaker load below 4 ohms, as well. He didn't realize what was happening until it was too late; imagine that. And I've encountered several others locally using RedLine heads who were unaware of the problem, and couldn't understand why their amps always ran hot.

It has to be better communicated to your customers, dude. The happier they are, the happier you guys at Carvin will be, and the more you'll sell due to "word-of-mouth" advertising. And I promise you that many current users of your RedLine heads don't understand why they "always run hot" and "always shut down".

Your good products are getting a bad rep, and as I mentioned in my first post this thread, I believe this is a large reason why.

Take the advice, or dismiss it. Your choice.

Peace.

 

[mgood]

Not exactly. What it actually says on the amp (I'm reading off the back of my R600 here), is "Bridge Only - Full Range 4ohm Minimum". This wording is placed over *two* 1/4" speaker outputs.

It is quite easy to initially assume (as I did), that this means 4 ohms *per cabinet*. After all, many heads can handle a 2-ohm connected load. Only when my R600 started to heat up, and I dug into the documentation, did I realize what was actually happening; that the 4 ohm markings referred to *total connected load*.

If you have a single-channel amp and it has a printed minimum impedence near the speaker outputs, that's a total impedence, regardless of how many speaker jacks may be on the amp. It's quite common for single-channel bass heads to have two speaker output jacks. Those two jacks are wired together in parallel.

If you have a two-channel amp and you bridge it, it becomes a single-channel amp.

I understand that might not be obvious to the kid who saved up his lunch money for a bass amp. If you have suggestions about how we can make it more clear, I'll be glad to pass them along. Or you can post them yourself in the Link Removed or the Link Removed on Link Removed.

Making both 4-ohm and 8-ohm versions of these cabs does not seem to be an option.

 

[TBASS]

I own a PB300 head that I bought new from Carvin in 1995 along with a V115 cabinet. Recently I acquired a new Ampeg BSE115T cabinet. The equipment is primarily used in my living room at low volumes. I have taken the head and carvin cab out about a handfull of times to friends homes to play with them. These are acoustic jam sessions. The head and Carvin cab should be in excellent condition. Below are my experiences with this Carvin rig.

1) The head has an annoying single speed cooling fan. Not good for playing with acoustic instruments at low volume.

2) The head puts out a sharp crack or pop to the cab on powerdown.

3) The cabinet (Carvin) has a boxy sound. It reminds me of a cab I Built in the garage in 1974 because I could not afford to buy a decent cab.

4) The head puts out a very good tone powering the Ampeg BSE115T cab alone!!!

5) The soldered to PC board 1/4" speaker jacks are starting to short out in the head.

6) The soldered to PC board 1/4" speaker input jack in the V115 cab is beginning to short as well.

7) Carvin customer service says they no longer carry parts for these amps and will no longer work on them.

8) The head will not power both 8ohm cabinets with good lows. I can only get a strong midrange sound. The specs rate the amp at 150-8ohms, 200-4ohms, 300-2ohms.

 

[Dr. Eagle]

I was not impressed with the PB500 I have either... it looked great on paper. I have a V410T and V118 Cabinet. It seemed the power amp was never quite enough to drive both well.

But the newer stuff is top notch IMO. It sounds great and as long as you don't hook up too many speakers it is pretty reliable.

 

[mgood]

I like the sound of my old Pro Bass II (PB400A) head. But it's always been badly underpowered - 125 watts per channel at 8 ohms and 200 watts per channel at 4 ohms, with no bridge mode. So into my V410T and V115 (both 8-ohm cabs), I get only 250 watts. That's pretty poor for a full stack. I'd been needing a more powerful head for years, nothing really wrong with the cabs. But what I really wanted was an entirely new rig. I'd been looking at the Carvin RL1018 (R1000 + RL410T + RL118) for quite a while. And I'd also been looking at some SWR cabs and, Bergantino cabs, and considered running a pre-amp + power amp setup. Carvin came out with the B1500 and BRX cabs at just the right time for me to decide to take the plunge. I ordered them before they were actually shipping. I "pre-ordered" them. Meaning "We don't actually have them yet, but we'll take your credit card info anyway. When they're ready to ship, we'll charge your card and send them out." So I was one of the first people to try them. They even quoted me in the Customer Comments in the bass amps section of the catalog. (Though they'll probably take that out when the catalog guys figure out that I'm an employee now )

By the way, those problems with the jacks On the PB amp and V cabs should be pretty easy for a local tech to fix. It should be just a matter of re-soldering a connection or bending the contact so that it presses more firmly against the plug.

 

[TBASS]

Mgood, thanks for the info. When I called Carvin about getting the amp fixed they offered me a good trade-in deal for an r600 or r1000. I'm leary of it because of my experience trying to drive my two cabinets with the pb300. 200 watts should be more than plenty to produce good low tones at living room volumes. I have played for many years through several rigs. In the mid seventies I used a 100 watt ampeg combo in clubs all over my area and had no problem with lows from it. Before I buy another Carvin I need to find out if they have upgraded there power TRANSMISSION or not.

 

[mgood]

The amps now are completely different from the ground up. I think the Pro Bass heads like these were FET amps. The power sections of the R600 and R1000 are the same thing that's in our PA power amps, the DCM600 and DCM1000 respectively. The DCM amps are generally held in high regard by even the most devout Carvin bashers. Scan through some of the threads on this forum and see how many people are using high-end preamps and big-name speaker cabs with Carvin DCM power amps.

I believe the new B1500 and B500 are similar in some ways, but I get over my head quick when I start talking about different types of power amplification.

 

[Schwinn]

I used to have a PB300c and I agree with everyone...they are not very good. But the new BRX line look awesome. They are completely redesigned amps and no one should let past experience with older models cloud opinion of these new ones.

 

[slinkp]

Not exactly. What it actually says on the amp (I'm reading off the back of my R600 here), is "Bridge Only - Full Range 4ohm Minimum". This wording is placed over *two* 1/4" speaker outputs.

It is quite easy to assume (as I initially did), that this means 4 ohms *per cabinet*.

I see your point. But in Carvin's defense, I've seen an awful lot of heads labelled exactly the same way. E.g. the eden wt-300 sitting here in the room with me.

Definitely room for improvement across the industry in this regard, though...
maybe at least add the word "total" somewhere

 

[bigbeefdog]

I see your point. But in Carvin's defense, I've seen an awful lot of heads labelled exactly the same way. E.g. the eden wt-300 sitting here in the room with me.

Definitely room for improvement across the industry in this regard, though...
maybe at least add the word "total" somewhere

Don't disagree. As I stated earlier, a large part of the problem is the stack packages with a 4-ohm cab included. Unless the purchaser is well versed in impedance issues, sooner or later they will run both cabs in parallel/bridged. And things will go south from there.

And do understand - I'm not trying to "bash" Carvin. I stated several times in this thread that it's perfectly serviceable, quality gear.

As long as the purchasers/users are aware of the limitations, all is well. I'm just afraid that many of those who purchase the RedLine stacks, aren't.

Better to know up front, than to smell the smoke later.

 

[KeithPas]

I use a Carvin 2/10 kickback cabinet with an SWR SM400 and that little cabinet sounds good to me. True, it can not handle the lowest notes of a five string at high volumes but it sounds good anyway. I have limited experience with the Carvin amps, I played through an RL1000 and I did not like the tone, I also did not have much time to work with it.

 

[Grahams Groove]

I think carvin's gear is great in the bang-for-buck area, but the sound (IMO of course) leaves something to be desired if you are looking for a good, crisp, hi-fi tone. The amp really colored my sound alot...I tried running flat and using just the EQ on my bass, tried changing all different freq. ranges to get as transparent of a tone as I could and no matter what, the amp always sounded 'honky' to me, especially the highs.

I played a modulus Q5 with barts, into the carvin R-1000, which was bridged into 2 older mesa diesel cabs (the kick-arse ones with EVM drivers...punch for days) and I could get a solid fingerstyle tone, but the slap tone was always 'honky'...the only way I can describe it is that the highs are not very snappy or crisp. They sound kind of muddy and rounded (even if you give them a good EQ bump, scoop out the mids, etc...no good remedy in my experience).

Depending on the tone you are going for, it could work out, but there are probably other used (or maybe new) pieces of gear that will amplify your bass with more transparency and accuracy.

My 2 cents...
Graham

 

[Michael Vee]

I'd like to throw in my compliments on the DCM1500 power amp.

It sounds fantastic and has done everything I've asked of it on gigs so far. Tons of power, good limiting, short rack depth, it's amazing.

I use it with either an F-1X or PB-1 preamp.

Those of you looking for power amps should definitely consider a DCM1500.

 

[Eric Moesle]

I had a DCM 2000 power amp for awhile which performed tremendously, though it was heavy as a lead brick, so I replaced with a QSC PLX. Sound quality was identical, price wasn't.

The only other problem was in the design of the outer casing, the front metal panel developed a physical rattle that drove me nuts, but was easily fixed by folding a piece of construction paper and jamming it in the crease on the front of the amp. Not a problem if the amp sits on the floor, but an annoyance if you put your rack on top a bass cab . . .

 

[slaprock]

my r1000 was emitting clip-like pops and distortions and eq and effects suddenly turned on and off, but i figured out what was happening with my carvin r1000-the vibrations from my cab were the cause for all the noise from the amp..the clippy, distorted sound and the unwelcome entrances and departures of eq and effects can be alleviated by taking the head and moving it 3 feet from the cab..yay..but it is kind of lame that i cant set the head on top of a cab

 

[Joe Boom]

Not exactly. What it actually says on the amp (I'm reading off the back of my R600 here), is "Bridge Only - Full Range 4ohm Minimum". This wording is placed over *two* 1/4" speaker outputs.

It is quite easy to assume (as I initially did), that this means 4 ohms *per cabinet*. After all, many heads can handle a 2-ohm connected load. Only when my R600 started to heat up, and I dug into the documentation, did I realize what was actually happening; that the 4 ohm markings referred to *total connected load*.




Read that paragraph of yours again. Really, man - read it. Clear violation of the KISS principle.

I understand it. You understand it. Most TalkBass denizens understand it. But do you really think that each and every one of your purchasers understands it? Do you think the 15-year-old who saves up money from his after-school job to order a Carvin rig understands it?

Here's a tip - the ones that don't are likely to become your service department's headaches, and subsequently will be authoring "Carvin Sucks" messages on Internet bulletin boards. Not the best thing for your reputation, to say the least.

As I said, it needs to be more clearly explained. Particularly when you're selling a packaged "stack" which, if connected in parallel and run bridged, presents a danger to the head included in the package.

FYI, I have BSEE and MSEE degrees in electrical engineering. I don't bring this up in any sort of attempt to impress you; I only bring it up to make clear that I'm not lacking in "basic impedance knowledge", as you suggested. Because I do understand these things, I was able to realize what was happening *before* I did irreparable damage - others may not be so lucky.

Bottom line, the documentation and markings on these amps are very confusing. Do note that the two posters immediately after me in this thread agreed with my comments about low impedance loads, and one of them mentioned that he burned up his RedLine head with a speaker load below 4 ohms, as well. He didn't realize what was happening until it was too late; imagine that. And I've encountered several others locally using RedLine heads who were unaware of the problem, and couldn't understand why their amps always ran hot.

It has to be better communicated to your customers, dude. The happier they are, the happier you guys at Carvin will be, and the more you'll sell due to "word-of-mouth" advertising. And I promise you that many current users of your RedLine heads don't understand why they "always run hot" and "always shut down".

Your good products are getting a bad rep, and as I mentioned in my first post this thread, I believe this is a large reason why.

Take the advice, or dismiss it. Your choice.

Peace.

The majority of us have managed to avoid this problem without additional verbiage.

 

[Munjibunga]

C'mon, guys. Don't bridge into two ohms. Ever. Learn it, know it. Then don't worry about what it says on the back of the amp. K?

 

[bigbeefdog]

The majority of us have managed to avoid this problem without additional verbiage.

The majority of "you" also didn't purchase a "packaged stack" that included an 8-ohm cab, a 4-ohm cab, and an instruction sheet that explained the process for running the system bridged.

Kinda like buying a new car, driving it off the lot, then watching the engine give up the ghost because there's no oil in it. Yeah, you know better than to run a motor without oil. We all do. Yes, in hindsight, you probably should have checked the dipstick. But you're left shaking your head that the dealer would set the table for such a hidden "gotcha". As I said earlier, I caught myself before I did any damage, and corrected the load. Others may not.

And it would have been so easy to just bundle a pair of 8-ohm cabs in the "package".

I thought I explained that; guess you missed it....