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Cello Invasion

#21
Uber, you've explained what's likely to be frustrating with my project. I searched the Zoom G3/G3x Operator's Manual and I find no mention of band-pass filters. There are two references to low-pass or high-pass filters in the Z-organ effect and HD Reverb, but nothing about filters in the product Specifications info. How does a person go about determining where the band-pass filter cuts off?

I now have nightmares of running two signals out of the G3 — the processed signal and a DI signal for the bass — then mixing the low and high frequencies together, possibly throwing a B3 processor into the mess. My cost & complexity just doubled or tripled to avoid sounding "brittle and thin."

Perhaps my simplest course is to order a G3 or G3x from M.F. and see what happens. Worst case, I partake of their generous returns policy.
 
#23
I play both guitar and bass, and have several pedals (multi-effect and individual) for both. And I've tried them all (of the ones I own) out on both.

You really need to try them out before you buy. Also, you need to have an idea of what you want from the pedal. To me, the biggest limitation of most guitar pedals is the lack of a wet/dry blend---which is what usually sucks out the low end from a bass. You can of course buy another blend pedal...but that can run up the complications/cost.

I agree with the multi-effect suggestion. As mentioned the Zoom G3 or B3 might be good choices. If you choose a guitar one, another one that is easy to work with is the Boss ME70...it has a manual mode that is similar to working with real pedals--no menus to scroll through, just dial in your sound and you can click on/off individual pedals. I find it among the easiest multi-effects to use in a live situation...it's the one I usually bring when performing a guitar gig.
 
#24
I have a friend who is a cellist and plays both accoustic and electric cello (NS).
Bass pedals are generally best suited for cello because they cover the whole spectrum of the instrument. Guitar pedals tend to cut too much of the bass frequencies.

As far as multi-effect I will let other chime in, analog pedals is what I know well.
 
#25
WildMidwest said:
Uber, you've explained what's likely to be frustrating with my project. I searched the Zoom G3/G3x Operator's Manual and I find no mention of band-pass filters. There are two references to low-pass or high-pass filters in the Z-organ effect and HD Reverb, but nothing about filters in the product Specifications info. How does a person go about determining where the band-pass filter cuts off?

I now have nightmares of running two signals out of the G3 — the processed signal and a DI signal for the bass — then mixing the low and high frequencies together, possibly throwing a B3 processor into the mess. My cost & complexity just doubled or tripled to avoid sounding "brittle and thin."

Perhaps my simplest course is to order a G3 or G3x from M.F. and see what happens. Worst case, I partake of their generous returns policy.
Click to expand...

First off, you may be overthinking things. Plug in the G3 and see how it sounds. If it sounds good, then it sounds good!

The filters are ONLY in certain effects, not all. The effects that most drastically will cut out your low end are the wahs or envelope filters. Usually, you have to look up specifically what it’s doing, and that’s probably impossible with the multi effects units. There’s so much going on in those that if they had every little nuance described in the manual, the manual would cost more to make then the equipment. In any event, plug the cello in, turn on the wahs or envelope filter (often called “auto wah”), and if your cello sounds weak or brittle, then it’s probably a band pass filter that the wah is using, and you’ll want to get a bass specific pedal. If it sounds OK, then don’t worry about it.

While it’s technically possible to design any of the effects specifically for guitar or for bass, there are some that don’t affect things quite as drastically. Compression/Limiters/Noise gates and distortions/fuzz/overdrives (for the most part) aren’t quite as frequency sensitive.

The reverbs, choruses, flangers, delays, phasors, etc. all basically at least double the original signal and then mess with that non-original signal, either by repeating it over and over (reverbs and delays) or by altering the frequency (chorus) or other factors (phasor, flangers). The result is the opposite of what occurs with the filters, where the lower frequencies get doubled up on top of each other. The same is happening to the higher frequencies, but our ears decipher the sounds much easier then the lower frequencies. It’s a product of our anatomy. We humans (assuming no other creatures are reading this) hear and can distinguish higher frequencies better then lower. The end product with these effects may be that the lower end sound muddy and indistinct on a cello’s lower notes, but sound fantastic on higher notes, or on a guitar.

Cellos have a wider frequency range with their overtones then guitars or basses, so I don’t think that anyone here has a clear idea of how things will sound. I can’t think that you’d be the first to do this. Surely someone else has, and I’ll bet if you find a cellist’s website or something like that and emailed them, they’d be happy to give you advice, too. Above all, just try it out. Even if it’s not perfect, it’s your first step in this realm. It’s a learning process. Most of the guys in this subforum have many years or even many decades tinkering with sounds and effects, and learned from trial and error. I just wish I had a resource like this forum back 20+ years ago when I started tinkering. It would have saved me some time and money!
 
#26
Wow! — So much wisdom in so few words... deeply appreciated.

The Realist cello pickup is fantastic. I just spent two hours playing it through my M-Audio preamp to Ultimate Ears canal phones. (Yes, I know this is potentially dangerous to hearing. I am very, very careful with it.) The sound is rich and full. It actually sounds better than our unamplified cello since most bowing-related chirps and squawks don't get picked up. The only problem is it's a bit bass heavy. I know this comment will make everyone cry in their beer. The Realist sits under the bridge's C-leg, per manufacturer's instructions, but I may try moving to the A-leg and hear how that sounds.

I'm off to Music-Go-Round to try out some gear! Thanks for all the great tips.
 
#27
I bought a heavy, old Ampeg 2x10 combo bass amp after playing it a couple of hours in the store. It's all the sound my son will need (famous last words). I tried three multi-effects pedals with the Ampeg: Boss ME-25, Boss ME-50B, and a ratty sounding old Digitech. While either of the Boss units would have gotten the job done, a lot of the effects left me wanting. I ordered a Zoom G3x from M.F.

I may still get an Ernie Ball Jr. volume pedal to use as an expression pedal if the built-in pedal doesn't have enough wet-to-dry separation. That'll be a project for another day.
 
#29
WildMidwest said:
Beginner's question: if I get a separate volume pedal (to be used as a volume pedal, not an expression pedal) should it go between the cello and the Zoom processor, or between the processor and the amp?
Click to expand...

This depends on your desire outcome.
Volume > zoom: effects like reverb and delay will still be able to trail off after killing the volume. Also input sensitive effects such filters and drives will have a different character based upon where your volume is set.

Zoom > volume: effects like reverb and delay won't trail off if you silence your volume. The volume can be used to control peaks and spikes if effects like drives or filters.

Both have pros and cons. Personally I use a volume before all effects, and a tuner after all effects. This way the volume can control the input, but the tuner functions as a kills witch when I want silence from my amp.
 
#30
Thank you Jason. That's just what I needed to know. I'll put my volume pedal between my cello and the Zoom.

If I understand correctly, I need a passive pedal for my passive pickup, versus in the Zoom > volume scenario you listed second I would want an active pedal? (Definite newbie questions!)

These forums are the greatest!
 
#31
Our passive (250K pot) Ernie Ball Jr. volume control works beautifully located between the cello and our Zoom G3X. I tried using the E.B.J. as an expression pedal (with a TRS converter cable as per Strymon's tip) but that didn't add anything. The G3X pedal is totally satisfactory. We'll keep our E.B.J. as a volume control.

My biggest gripe about the Zoom G3X is its worthless wah patches. I deleted them all. After trying out a variety of beat-up used wahs at Music Go Round, I decided instead to buy a lightly used Weeping Demon off eBay; it should be here in a few days. The ability to switch between guitar wah and bass wah is very appealing.

We're loving the diversity of sounds from our electric cello via the Zoom G3X. We enjoy the classic rock G3 patches I downloaded from the web — most of them are better than what ships inside the Zoom. I'll be trying out Crystalman's bass patches next. Great community effort.

We're having a blast! I definitely feel like I'm among friends here.
 

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