Double Bass Cello Technique on Bass

[oren]

I was listening to this interview with Nina Bernat on Jason Heath’s podcast and she talks about playing and transcribing cello pieces on bass.
963: Nina Bernat on chamber music and career possibilities

 

[fdeck]

Here's what I gained from playing cello before bass: It wasn't so much that I used any specific technique. Rather, I was already familiar with the discipline of how to learn technique. This included working with my teacher. Also, playing cello first made me older when I started playing the bass, so I knew a lot less.

 

[damonsmith]

I appreciate the advice. I would like to play in a local orchestra one day.

Working through Simandl with your teacher is the best at this stage. Do not get Boardwalkin' for a couple of years. It is only a distraction at the stage you are at, though it is a great book. Maybe ask your teacher about starting the Vivaldi or Marcello Sonatas after you get deeper into the Simandl book.
Of course there is a lot to learn from 'cello and 'cello rep. However, there is ton of music and methods for the double bass. There is a lot to work through before we run out of resources.

 

[MaidenVT]

Working through Simandl with your teacher is the best at this stage. Do not get Boardwalkin' for a couple of years. It is only a distraction at the stage you are at, though it is a great book. Maybe ask your teacher about starting the Vivaldi or Marcello Sonatas after you get deeper into the Simandl book.
Of course there is a lot to learn from 'cello and 'cello rep. However, there is ton of music and methods for the double bass. There is a lot to work through before we run out of resources.

How far do you have to go into the book before you start playing the 30 Etudes? I'm going to ask my teacher the same question tomorrow.

 

[damonsmith]

How far do you have to go into the book before you start playing the 30 Etudes? I'm going to ask my teacher the same question tomorrow.

Once you are shifting you can start 30 Etudes.

 

[groooooove]

I assume the main distinction is bass uses a three-finger technique in the lower positions and cello uses all four fingers. Unless you have super big hands or are playing a super small bass, this aspect of cello technique is not really usable.

There is however a four-finger upright bass technique that involve using pivots/shifts to avoid hyper extending the hand. This generates a different series of finger patterns and shifts than standard cello technique or any of the standard upright techniques..

I believe Marcos Machado has four books planned covering four-finger upright technique. Using the Third Finger in ALL Positions? - Interview and demonstration by Marcos Machado - YouTube

The bass I have seen Machado use appears to be somewhat small, which I think will improve the efficacy of this approach.

Tao of Bass – a look inside – Jason Heath's Double Bass Blog

IMHO, Playing through the cello exercises using upright technique would be useful.

marco's books are not for the faint of heart. they are extremely thorough. but the results are undeniable.

he actually developed all of these techniques on a large, i want to say 42.5" scale bass. certainly 42 or bigger. his current basses are on the smaller side but the technique works on all instruments when applied properly.

he is such a master, and his technique is amazing.

 

[bassically_eli]

marco's books are not for the faint of heart. they are extremely thorough. but the results are undeniable.

he actually developed all of these techniques on a large, i want to say 42.5" scale bass. certainly 42 or bigger. his current basses are on the smaller side but the technique works on all instruments when applied properly.

he is such a master, and his technique is amazing.

That's interesting to hear about the instrument scale. I've read that criticism several times about his approach, as well as the criticism that he's an exceptional case, but I've suspected that both are unwarranted. He's a professor and pedagogue with (presumably) numerous bass students.

 

[groooooove]

That's interesting to hear about the instrument scale. I've read that criticism several times about his approach, as well as the criticism that he's an exceptional case, but I've suspected that both are unwarranted. He's a professor and pedagogue with (presumably) numerous bass students.

he's obviously an exception.

he's a very, very unique person and player. His approach is not for everyone. I would argue if you were a super dedicated young player that wanted to become undeniable, he's likely one of your best options as a teacher.

from what i can tell, his approach is more along the lines of "learn every single method you can find. actively work to seek out others as well. don't just learn them, intimately understand the approach."

a true professional, in every sense.

of course nobody is perfect as a person nor teacher. I'm sure he'd agree with me on that. but the thought of criticizing him seems crazy to me. if the criticism is "it's too much work to get that good" at the same time as "hes just so much better than the others" well... seems you've missed the obvious

 

[DaveAceofBass]

We don’t do forward and backward extensions on bass…we shift or pivot to reach notes. I teach orchestra and there are similarities but there are differences. You can play cello rep on bass…been done for many years…but not everything will lay correctly. Best to learn upright technique not cello technique. You can apply upright techniques to cello repertoire. Good luck.

 

[MaidenVT]

I have a great teacher I'm just a newbie. I actually did some shifting exercises yesterday and I did very well. I have a lot of work to do and I'm going to work very hard to accomplish my goals.

 

[turf3]

marco's books are not for the faint of heart. they are extremely thorough. but the results are undeniable.

he actually developed all of these techniques on a large, i want to say 42.5" scale bass. certainly 42 or bigger. his current basses are on the smaller side but the technique works on all instruments when applied properly.

he is such a master, and his technique is amazing.

I would respectfully suggest not getting drawn down the rabbit hole of non standard techniques as a beginner.

 

[groooooove]

I would respectfully suggest not getting drawn down the rabbit hole of non standard techniques as a beginner.

absolutely. none of my estimation of what someone like M.M. preaches would apply to beginners. Simandl is an excellent starting point. young professionals / college students are the ones I think branching out is a good idea.

truthfully for beginners, they start with essential elements, which is fine but far from ideal.

 

[MaidenVT]

absolutely. none of my estimation of what someone like M.M. preaches would apply to beginners. Simandl is an excellent starting point. young professionals / college students are the ones I think branching out is a good idea.

truthfully for beginners, they start with essential elements, which is fine but far from ideal.

So far so good with Simandl. I actually like the book there's so much info and it worked for a lot of professional bassists. I can't complain. I was just was curious about the cello technique.

 

[Ludwig]

Having learned both: cello technique can not easily be translated to double bass. The much longer scale prevents using the cello 4 finger technique with extensions of the left hand. The different tuning (fourth / fifth) makes many note example useless to learn the same thing. The much heavier bow makes adaption of bow hold necessary.
Posture with the double bass in seated position is usually different from cello due to size of instrument. Since double bass is often played standing compared to sitting with cello, discriptions about posture and such don't help with the other instrument.
I like playing from cello song books on double bass, but the difficulties faced will be different then on cello. Different things will be learned on double bass compared to cello using the same piece. I avoid playing the same pieces on double bass and cello without a long pause in between, else I often finger the wrong note because of the different tuning.
My favourite books for teaching / learning double bass are Sassmannshaus: Early start on the double bass (Bärenreiter)

 

[Jon Stefaniak]

There's a lot more literature for cello and more tools the better.

That metaphor is pretty sketchy. You want tools that suit the job you're doing.

 

[MaidenVT]

I love the DB repertoire. I try to listen to everything I can get my hands on. I also love the Cello concertos played on DB.
I was standing but I found out I play better while in a seated position. I can get more power with my bowing hand and I prefer the tone I'm producing with a French bow. That was another reason I asked about cello technique for the bowing hand since it's a similar grip.

 

[MaidenVT]

So rest assured with all that said and the help from you guys on this wonderful forum, I'm looking at the big picture focusing just on DB technique. I appreciate all the advise and will keep you posted on my progress.

 

[Ludwig]

For me holding a bass bow and a cello bow is slightly different. Mostly thumb and pinky placement. If I try to hold a bass bow (french grip) identical to a cello bow, I can only play for a short time without getting cramps, with the cello bow playing for a long time is no problem.
The Sassmannhaus bass tutorials are similiar (for example pieces) to the Sassmannhaus cello tutorials. Good build up of things to learn and much less boring then Simandl:
Close, J. Peter / Sassmannshaus, Holger / Early Start on the Double Bass, Volume 1 / Bärenreiter Verlag

 

[MaidenVT]

For me holding a bass bow and a cello bow is slightly different. Mostly thumb and pinky placement. If I try to hold a bass bow (french grip) identical to a cello bow, I can only play for a short time without getting cramps, with the cello bow playing for a long time is no problem.
The Sassmannhaus bass tutorials are similiar (for example pieces) to the Sassmannhaus cello tutorials. Good build up of things to learn and much less boring then Simandl:
Close, J. Peter / Sassmannshaus, Holger / Early Start on the Double Bass, Volume 1 / Bärenreiter Verlag

Thanks I will check it out.