Ceramic pickups

[gary mitchell]

I went out in my garage yesterday and was looking for my shop vac why I was moving a couple of things I found an old Jazz bass body that I had sanded it down and was going to paint I am not sure what brand it is the neck is like a Fender sort of. I have had a long time and for some reason I guess I lost interest in it. But I am going to finish it for something to do all it needs is painted. I don't want to put a lot of money in . Anyway all my guitars have Alnico pickups in them and my basses have Active pickups. What do you guys think of ceramic pickups in a bass, I haven used ceramics in along time. Thanks

 

[kodiakblair]

What do you guys think of ceramic pickups in a bass

Peavey thought ceramics were a good idea, they only used alnico pickups in 1 model ; the B-90. Ceramic magnets never held DiMarzio back any, they've sold 1000's of them.

For myself, I don't have an issue with ceramic mag pickups. Have them in a few of my basses, less wire/higher output; no sacrifice in tone.

 

[dwizum]

Magnet choice is only one variable in pickup design, it's really hard to make accurate statements about ceramic pickups versus alnico. Especially if we don't know anything else about the pickups in question. It's trivial to design pickups that break the generalizations you'll hear in threads like this. A lot of guitar and bass tone theory comes from the cultural worship of traditional approaches, which seems to lead some people to look for reasons to not like newer things (i.e. ceramic magnets in pickups).

In other words, I think ceramic magnets are totally fine in a bass pickup. If I were in your shoes, I'd focus on finding a pickup I liked in the budget range I had in mind, and I wouldn't pay attention to the magnet material.

 

[iiipopes]

If you read Bill Lawrence, he clears it up. To summarize, there is no magic with alnico, there is no inherent inferiority of ceramic. It all depends on the engineering of the pickups. Here's why: alnico, with its iron content, interacts with the coil to raise inductance. This has a definite impact on the tone. Some like it, some don't. Ceramic and similar magnets do not interact inductively the same way with a coil. So the tone is completely different. The entire issue is engineering the coil(s) to match the magnets to get the inductance to shape a desired tone curve. This wasn't always the case. The most famous, or infamous, example is from decades ago when you could get ceramic magnets to replace the alnico bars in Gibson humbucking pickups. They advertised a brighter top end. The problem is they didn't match the coils and sounded harsh. Many early 90's Stratoid pickups had the same problem: cheap ceramic magnets, but no proper coil design, so they sounded like ice picks in the eye. That promulgated rumors, opinions, and polarity (pun intended) not based in fact. Setting aside the engineering, those who worship "vintage" tone insist on Alnico slugs in their pickups. Those who discount anything old design go the ceramic direction. Neither is bad. Neither is good. My friends and I have basses with both; I have guitars with both. We all gig with both. Examples of great engineering of bass pickups with alnico: Fralin, Seymour Duncan, some Fender reissues, and a few other boutique brands; examples of great engineering of bass pickups with ceramic: Dimarzio, Bartolini, EMG, Bill Lawrence - Wilde, and a few others. And most of these makers also make superlative pickups with both kinds of magnets, bass and guitar. So in the present day it comes down to finding your tone, reading the literature, consulting the legitimate descriptions and reviews, and finding your voice.

 

[two fingers]

It's sort of like the whole neo magnet debate in the speaker world. Engineers can design speaker cabs with both traditional magnets and neo magnets to sound pretty much the same. The same is true for pickup magnets. Engineers can design pickups using both kinds of magnets to have pretty much the same frequency curves. The differences in tone will be subtle at most, more likely inaudible.

In short, magnets are only one part of the equation. The whole equation will determine response/tone.

If it were me, I would get a tone goal in mind. Than I would either ask here, or get up with the fine folks at Nordstrand to see what they have that would serve my needs.

 

[Lostgallifreyan]

I don't know about tone and pickup design (too many variables, many of them external to the pickup!), but I do know some things about magnets and coils to consider.

First, turns count relates to inductance as a square law, it beats most if not all other quantities involved for effect on outcomes, be they coil perimeter length, core material, whatever.

Second, given that alnico is stronger than ferrite (ceramic) magnets of same size and shape, the logical conclusion is that IF alnico is better than ceramic, then neodymium would be better still, for the same reasons of increased strength, because it allows smaller turns count and less inductance for a strong output, and also a better Q if that matters. (High Q is easy to damp if you've got it, not so easy to get if you want it and haven't..)

Assuming that neodymium has not been found to give a dramatic reason for use in pickups, I think it's safe to assume that the difference between ferrite and alnico magnets is also unimportant.

 

[gary mitchell]

I have always used Alnico pickups in basses and guitars. I have mostly used Seymour Duncan's bass and guitar. when I played Metal I used a USA Jackson with SA/SA/81 EMGs. I after a more lively just a little stronger this sounds crazy little brighter sound with my bass but with a good bottom. And all my friend use Alnico. Now years ago I had and that was years ago I had a USA Peavey Strat like guitar that had Ferrite mag pickups if I remember right it sounded okay but I didn't have the guitar very long I sold it.

 

[SteveCS]

...
What do you guys think of ceramic pickups in a bass
...

You have to use your ears and, as @two fingers noted, have some kind of objective in mind - just 'better' doesn't really count. But, FWIW, here's my experience with MM-style pickups. Both of my rays (SBMM Ray34 and EBMM SR4) started off with Alnico pickups. Then one day I played an EBMM Sterling, which blew me away big-time. Compared to my AlNiCo rays, the overall tone (no matter how the EQ was set) was much more transparent and 'accurate', with greater note definition and clarity. Also the transients and sensitivity to dynamics felt more immediate and 'connected' - the response to technique felt more linear than the 'Rays. The only significant difference I could find was the ceramic pickup. By pure chance, the store also had a used EBMM Sterling pickup in the 'priced to go' box. So I snagged that and dropped it into teh Ray34 (having first removed the phantom coil). And there it was - everything that struck me about the Sterling was there. So the EBMM also got a ceramic pickup in the shape of a Delano MC 4 FE. Once again, those characteristic transients, linear dynamics, accuracy and transparency were there. These things will not be to everyones' taste, and if you are looking for thick, gooey 'vintage Fender' tones then ceramic might not be the right thing. That said, I can't comment on the differences in the typical Fender pickup design. It may be that the general MM pickup design - relatively low impedance coils and big poles - is particularly sensitive to the diffferences. Who knows, but IME there is a significant difference between permanent alnico slugs and ferrous slugs with a permanent ceramic bar.

 

[LetItGrowTone]

As others said, there are many variables, but my experience agrees with @SteveCS, above.

Examples for me were Glarry J, Ric, Model P (and Dimarzio Super Distortion for 6-string guitar).

 

[Geri O]

My only experience with Alnico and ceramic magnets in the pickups in the same bass is with Stingray SR5s.

It's common knowledge that MM began using ceramics in the SR5s somewhere in 1991 or 92. In 2008, MM switched the SR5 back to the Alnico magnets.

(The Semantic Police love to start MM/Sterling debates over just where the ceramic pickups for the SR5 came from. Those guys can go play in the streets. I just play the things, make money and have a LOT of fun with them. This ain't the time, place, or question.....).

SR5 users seem to definitely tell a difference in the two types of SR5 pups, as can I. For whatever reason (design, windings, wire, whatever, etc.), the ceramics are known for being brighter and punchier, even described as nasty, brittle, and edgy by some. The Alnico pups are known for a tamer, less edgy, smoother tone.

I owned 4 SR5s, all made before 2008, and I loved all of them. They had that tone, man. That bite. And I loved/love the 3-band preamp even though many do not. I tend to not use the onboard EQ at all, preferring to leave the preamp controls set to flat/center detent and do the EQ-ing at the amp. That way, I'm not futzing with the onboard control while I play.

My current SR5 (actually on semi-permanent loan that I hope will eventually turn into a sale!) is a 2011 with, of course, the Alnico pickups. I describe it as a more polite tone, not quote the edge, but definitely all SR5 tone all the time. And I tend to set more highs at the amp when playing this Stingray. Sounds great!

All of this is to show two examples of Alnico and ceramics in use in pretty much the same bass. Again, I don't how much the magnet material has to do with the resulting tone. My guess is that it does play a significant part in this case....

 

[badumba]

I'm fascinated with this discussion.
Have an old P Bass workhorse. I was rained on one too many times and decided to spring for a bad-weather bass. Picked up a Squire Sonic P bass - cheap and nice playing. Every time I switch bases for gigs, I have to turn my amp volume down for the Squire and up for the old Fender (just volume - everything else same). I get way more appreciation with the Squire because the tone is so rich, uniform, and clean. I thought I was going crazy because I am not a knob turner - I set it and do the rest with my fingers/hands.
My sound is so much better with the Squire, but old bass feels better.

Doing some research told me this new bass has ceramic pickups. Never knew they used ceramic in pickups, but there's a lot I don't know. Anyway, I'm thinking of swapping out the pickups in the the old P bass with ceramic so I don't have to turn my amp volume up/down.

Any cost conscious suggestions for ceramic pups for 60's P ?

 

[SpankBazz]

I'm fascinated with this discussion.
Have an old P Bass workhorse. I was rained on one too many times and decided to spring for a bad-weather bass. Picked up a Squire Sonic P bass - cheap and nice playing. Every time I switch bases for gigs, I have to turn my amp volume down for the Squire and up for the old Fender (just volume - everything else same). I get way more appreciation with the Squire because the tone is so rich, uniform, and clean. I thought I was going crazy because I am not a knob turner - I set it and do the rest with my fingers/hands.
My sound is so much better with the Squire, but old bass feels better.

Doing some research told me this new bass has ceramic pickups. Never knew they used ceramic in pickups, but there's a lot I don't know. Anyway, I'm thinking of swapping out the pickups in the the old P bass with ceramic so I don't have to turn my amp volume up/down.

Any cost conscious suggestions for ceramic pups for 60's P ?

I was thinking of starting a thread because I had a similar experience.
I'd been chasing the Jazz Bass sound from 70's funk records.
My other Jazz basses get close but the only one that truly nails it is the bass with ceramic pickups.
I did some did some research and found out that all the "alnico good, ceramic bad" talk was a bunch of hooey.

 

[LetItGrowTone]

@SpankBazz, I learned it from a Glarry, least expensive bass I ever bought.
EDIT: It was a J. I've never heard their P.

 

[maturanesa]

Barts are all ceramics and you can find them in high value instruments. Fender use alnicos, other brands neos, other samarium cobalt. The magnets just give a magnetic field. Some use the magnets at the base with iron as poles, others the magnets as poles. It all depends on the magnet strengh and pup construction.