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Chord Progression Analysys Problem

Discussion in 'General Instruction [BG]' started by gerison, Apr 14, 2010.


  1. gerison

    gerison

    Jun 5, 2008
    Europe
    I'm just sitting over the follwing Chord Progression

    C, Am, Dm, G, Ab, Db, C, G
    Key:c, the chord have the follwoing places
    C, Am, Dm, G, Ab, Db, C, G
    I VI II V ? ? I V
    I figured out the following II-V-I progressons

    II V I
    C, Am, Dm, G, Ab, Db, C, G
    II V I

    First: Is it still a II V I if it the V Chord is minor? and
    Second: What about Ab, Db; It's V-I but how it fit's to C and the key in C general. If I would assume that Am, Dm, G opens a new key in G a still can't handle Ab and Db.. so what is it?

    It would be great if I could get some help on this, and understandig music a little better.

    thanks
     
  2. gerison

    gerison

    Jun 5, 2008
    Europe
    The layout of my prior post is not what I inteded to look like..
    The first II V I should be Dm,G, ? ? C
    The second: Am, Dm, G
     
  3. mambo4

    mambo4

    Jun 9, 2006
    Dallas
    typically, II-V-I changes look like this:
    major key: ii (min7) - V7(dom7) - I(maj7)
    minor key: ii(min7b5) - V7 - I(min or min-maj7)

    (writing "II-V-I" kind of implies only major chords, which is NOT typical. Caps =major, lower case =minor )

    The V is almost always a dominant chord or some alteration / substitution for one.

    I doesn't fit in the key, it is either modulation to a new key or they are "flat five" or tritone substitutes for D7 -G7. D7 can be replaced with an Ab7, and G7 with Db7
     
  4. gerison

    gerison

    Jun 5, 2008
    Europe
    So the Db is the Tritone Substitution to G7 and therfor it is the V moving to the tonic C. and everybody lives a tension free life ever after.
    The Db therfore itself ist a temporarily I, while the Ab is the coresponding V to it ant therfor itself is at liest a V-I progession. right?
    But from G to Ab... is this something like a chromatic approach over the whole chord?
     
  5. 4Strings46

    4Strings46

    May 7, 2008
    Arizona
    There's only one cycle, the chordal progression: C

    to F to Bb to Eb to Ab Db Gb(F#) to B to E A D G to C.
    If you are familiar with the key signatures you will notice it is the same order.
    -- F is 1 flat, Bb 2 flats, etc.....B is

    5 sharps, E is 4 sharps etc, Then a back-cycle is going backward on

    the cycle -- Em//// B7(back cycling on the chord)//// to Em///.

    The E7 back to G is Cyclic or a perfect cycle.You can also use Inversions which are
    different chordal notes on the bottom.
    important to know that's what they are called: G chord R 3 5 R G B D G

    (root inversion it's sometimes called) 1st inversion is: 3 5 R 3 B D G B

    2nd inversion 5 R 3 5 D G B D and so on with all the chords
     
  6. gerison

    gerison

    Jun 5, 2008
    Europe
    Thank you, everything you've written is pretty much clear to me. But just can't figure out to solve the G to Ab thing on basis of that information.
    maybe you can take a second look, and explain that to me..

    thanks
     
  7. JimmyM

    JimmyM Supporting Member

    Apr 11, 2005
    Apopka, FL
    Endorsing: Ampeg Amps, EMG Pickups
    if you don't mind me saying so, you're bogging yourself down in minutiae. Do you really need to relate it to a number to get it? if it were me, i'd call them a b6 and a b9 (b meaning flat, of course), but hardly important in the grand scheme of things if you already know the chords.
     
  8. mambo4

    mambo4

    Jun 9, 2006
    Dallas
    +1 to jimmy M's point.
    But even so:

    a ii-V-I in C major:
    Dmin G7 Cmaj7

    if you tritone sub for BOTH the ii and the V:
    Ab7(of some flavor) Db7 (of some flavor) Cmaj

    It is common for Jazzoids to throw in ii-V's in the key of upcoming chord without much regard for the diatonic key of the piece. Just as common to drop a tritone sub inplace of any chord that is moving a fourth, again without reguard for the key.
     
  9. 4Strings46

    4Strings46

    May 7, 2008
    Arizona
    The only other thing I can think of is when walking alot of bass players will use a 2nd which is Ab of the G Maj scale. What do you think?
    Technically Ab7= Ab-C-Eb-Gb
     
  10. Chris K

    Chris K

    May 3, 2009
    Gorinchem,The Netherlands
    Partner: Otentic Guitars
    Correct if you just want to play the tune.
    Insufficient if you want to analyse it, but so are those nasty numbers.

    As for Db and Ab in the key of C:

    It's important to step up from Roman numerals to harmonic functions. In many cases Db is a strong dominant compared to G7, so it has to come after G7 (if you care to follow the 'rules' of classical harmony).
    Ab is a strong subdominant compared to F or Dm, so it has to come after them, creating tension. It is practically always followed by a V7 or a I in second inversion (important knowledge for bass players!). In both cases, the bass will play Ab- G, unless they appear in the melody.
     
  11. togglehead

    togglehead Supporting Member

    Jul 1, 2009
    San Diego, CA
    I saw somewhere a visual diagram of the circle of fifths directly next to a circle of fifths using tritone substitution...and the root chord names were chromatic. I wish for the life of me i could find (or recreate) that diagram. It might help here...

    Something along lines of:

    Std. = C - G - D - A - E - B
    Sub = C - Db - D - Eb - E - F

    Forgive me if im screwing this up, or confusing things more...
     
  12. mambo4

    mambo4

    Jun 9, 2006
    Dallas
    I think that's confusingly worded.
    the 2nd of Gmaj = A, not Ab.
    I assume you mean something else.

    that's how the tritone sub works:
    D7 : D F# A C
    Ab7: Ab C Eb Gb

    bold notes are the same (F# is Gb)

    more importantly it's the 3 and the 7 of the chords:
    The 3 of the V7 -> b7 of the Tritone sub,
    The b7 of the V7 -> 3 of the Tritone sub

    so the harmonic function is the same, while the root note motion to the next chord in the cycle becomes smoother.
     
  13. 4Strings46

    4Strings46

    May 7, 2008
    Arizona
    Mambo,
    My bad. it is A. Its easier for me to to hear it and see it on the fretboard. lol. ;)
     
  14. JimmyM

    JimmyM Supporting Member

    Apr 11, 2005
    Apopka, FL
    Endorsing: Ampeg Amps, EMG Pickups
    i'm sorry...it appears i need glasses or i'm losing my marbles (probably a combo of both). i thought he was just trying to figure out a way to number around the scale notes. had no idea he was trying to apply them as substitutions in a song ;)

    anyway, senior moment over...i'll just move off to the side and not say much.

    :bag:
     

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