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Chord substitutions....
- Thread starter jongor
- Start date
This is not strictly accurate - for example, there are pieces on "Kind of Blue" which are based entirely on modes - i.e. scales and have no chords -so Miles intended the soloists, including himself (!)to just play notes from those modes.
I think that scales vs, modes is the wrong kind of dichotomy - to be successful in Jazz you need to know both and play both. So if chords are specified then you can choose scales that fit and if modes/scales are specified then you can think of chords if you like.
I think generaly though there are more scales that will fit over a type of chord - so if you limit yourself to just playing the chord in question, then you are missing out on all sorts of "colours" that can make solos interesting (as well as chromatic passing notes and just playing "out") .
From analsysing his solos, you can tell that Miles used all sort of alternate scales and didn't often limit himself to the notes of the chord that was being played.
Originally posted by Howard K
Well, I was listening to Mingus Dynasty and realised the album was 90% blues, then I realised that Mingus made the blues swing like it was about to come of its hinges and that he was doing some really cool stuff in outlining the chord changes - changing tension in different sections of the song. Then I thought "this is just blues, I know this progression, so I need to learn to walk like that over chord progressions I know before I tackle the II-V-I and more complex progressions".
So there you go, I need to learn the blues properly BEFORE I start on jazz, and Mingus made me realise how much the blues can swing.
I thik this was one of the big revelatory moments for me when I started playing Jazz. So coming froma rock background I hated the Blues as it usually meant - guitarists soloing endlessly over simple changes and leaden rhythms.
So if any guitarist said to me : "Blues Jam" , then my inclination was to say - no thanks and start packing up my stuff - err.. sorry I have to be somewhere else!!
But then in Jazz, it is the basis of so much great music, you have to re-assess and try to work out what they are doing that is so different - like using different scales from "just the Blues scale" - adding in chord substitutions, extra II-V-I s etc etc.
So now from a few years ago, thinking I hated the Bues - some of my favourite albums are based on it - like Blues and the Abstract Truth, Kind of Blue, Blowin' the Blues Away etc etc.
Originally posted by moley
Of course, Kind Of Blue is only kind of based on the blues
Well - "Freddie Freeloader" is one of the "straightest" Blues sequences in the canon of Jazz standards! Only one altered chord out of the whole basic sequence!!
lol, I know, I was really just being silly.
Though, considering the album is mostly modal, I'm not really sure why they called it Kind Of Blue. Surely Kind Of Modal would have been a better title?
Originally posted by moley
lol, I know, I was really just being silly.
Though, considering the album is mostly modal, I'm not really sure why they called it Kind Of Blue. Surely Kind Of Modal would have been a better title?
Well FF is a Blues and you have tracks called "All Blues" and "Blue in Green" and "So What" is pretty Bluesy - it's like a simplified Blues - when Miles comes in with his solo - it is pure Blues!!
Plus - at the time, everybody knew about the Blues - but a lot of potential buyers might have said "Modal" - what the xxxxx's that!! ??
"Kind of Modal" sounds crap
"Kind of Blue" sounds
Bruce, I know precisely what you mean, I rarely enjoyed a blues jam in the past - I have had many which have been very cool.. but as you said most of the time it turns into hours of simelar sounding guitar solos.. while the bassist just plays the boring stuff.
So there I am listening to this Mingus album and I can hear Mingus outlining the progression. Actually it's very very clear, I think anyone could hear it.
And he's walking, but he changes the intervals between each 8th when he want to change the feel and tension, so he'll play big intervals when he wasnt large dramatic steps and smaller, inc chromatic, intervals when he wants to up the pace a bit. Only very slight rhythmic embellishments, but the feel is changed radically.
It just really stood out to me how he was using the walking line to really change the feel of the song - and because it was a progression that I knew it made it that much more audible.
So there you have it, I MUST learn the blues!
"Kind of Blue" sounds
Bruce, I know precisely what you mean, I rarely enjoyed a blues jam in the past - I have had many which have been very cool.. but as you said most of the time it turns into hours of simelar sounding guitar solos.. while the bassist just plays the boring stuff.
So there I am listening to this Mingus album and I can hear Mingus outlining the progression. Actually it's very very clear, I think anyone could hear it.
And he's walking, but he changes the intervals between each 8th when he want to change the feel and tension, so he'll play big intervals when he wasnt large dramatic steps and smaller, inc chromatic, intervals when he wants to up the pace a bit. Only very slight rhythmic embellishments, but the feel is changed radically.
It just really stood out to me how he was using the walking line to really change the feel of the song - and because it was a progression that I knew it made it that much more audible.
So there you have it, I MUST learn the blues!
Sounds to me like you want to get the Mingus "More than a Playalong" - so this has a book and 2 CDs played by people who are currently in the Mingus Big Band.
So the book has chord charts for all Mingus's most famous tunes, with bass transcriptions - the first CD is like the Aebersold ones so you can play along with it and the second one has like complete performances of all the tunes.
The book also has notes about how to play the tunes and analysing them - it's great!!
I think I got mine in Argent's - but you can order it from JazzWise as well!!
So the book has chord charts for all Mingus's most famous tunes, with bass transcriptions - the first CD is like the Aebersold ones so you can play along with it and the second one has like complete performances of all the tunes.
The book also has notes about how to play the tunes and analysing them - it's great!!
I think I got mine in Argent's - but you can order it from JazzWise as well!!
Well, I bought a Mingus book of transcriptions the other day actually, just the horns in Bb, but obvioulsy it has chord symbols. It was only a tenner, so I bought it just for interests sake - so I could check it out when listening to particular tracks etc.
I'm a unquantifyabley large distance from ever being able to play Mingus lines anyway!
I'm a unquantifyabley large distance from ever being able to play Mingus lines anyway!
Something I've been wanting to do is to take a typical Jazz Blues progression and do a chord comping thing with it during the guitar solo of a standard blues (Like an SRV or Buddy Guy type of blues) I think it would really sound great in a 3 piece situation.
Originally posted by moley
LOL! So you thought I was a pretentious drug addict for all that time?
FWIW, did everyone else 'get' that Steely Dan title/avatar/sig combo - or did the rest of you think I was just being pretentious too?
I "got" it the first time. But I still think you're a pretentious drug addict.
Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
I "got" it the first time. But I still think you're a pretentious drug addict.
Ahh, well fair enough
You're kidding right?
Steely Dan are essentially Donald Fagen (vocals, keyboards) and Walter Becker (guitars, sometimes bass). They write the songs, and usually session players (in their prime they used Chuck Rainey, Steve Gadd and the like).
It's basically (very) Jazz-influenced pop/rock music.
They started in about 1972, did seven albums, then took a break through the 80s and 90s, and came out with their comeback album back in 2000.
And yes, they are good. Very good.
Check out their album "Aja" - that seems to be their most popular. But they're all good.
Wow - I am surprised, I thought everybody had heard of Steely Dan as well! 
They are usually the one band that everybody likes.
Aja is very Jazzy - well in a rock kind of way - but is a great album nonetheless.
I think Steely Dan are unique in that they combine musicianship - interesting song structures - with very good lyrics - almost literary, in a "great American novel" style.
Usually bands interested in lyrics aren't so hot on Jazz chord sequences and vice versa!
They are usually the one band that everybody likes.
Aja is very Jazzy - well in a rock kind of way - but is a great album nonetheless.
I think Steely Dan are unique in that they combine musicianship - interesting song structures - with very good lyrics - almost literary, in a "great American novel" style.
Usually bands interested in lyrics aren't so hot on Jazz chord sequences and vice versa!
Originally posted by Howard K
Slightly yes. I've never heard any Steely Dan whatsoever. It sounds very country which is probably why I subconsciously avoided it like the plague
I believe they named themselves after a dildo in "Naked Lunch" by William Burroughs.
Howard - if you still haven't heard any SteelyDan I'll bring some CDs to the next Summerschool!!
