Chord tones for an Alt chord

[Mike Dimin]

I try to avoid too many occurrences of the same number. If you're going by the "melodic minor harmony" interpretation, then this is technically what the chord is: 1 ♭3 ♭5 ♭7 ♭9 ♭11 ♭13. No repetitions whatsoever. However, nobody likes to see ♭11, so they change it to "3", which makes sense since that's how that tone typically functions. But then we have two types of 3's, which is weird, so "♭3" is changed to "#9", since that's the Jimmy chord. Now there are two types of 9's, but everybody knows that one of those ninths is an actual ninth, and the other ninth is actually a third. "#9" also implies that it should be voiced above the 3, which is correct. So, there's a lot of fuss about the ninths, but we're willing to live with two of them. I wouldn't start messing with the fifths, but if that's what helps you to remember it, more power to ya.

One reason I like the b9 , #9 nomenclature is that, back in the day a instructor of mine at Berklee would always say b9 implies #9. This works whether you are using Melodic Minor or Diminished harmony

 

[Bainbridge]

By that logic, he could just have easily said that ♭9 implies ♭3.

 

[thehangingmist]

Woah! Thanks i think i got it! But it feels like my brain might explode

Melodic minor scale from a semi tone above to solo on

And chord tones could be
Root
3
b5 and or #5
b7
b9
#9

Bazinga!

 

[thehangingmist]

Reminds me of the harmony3 classes i used to be scratching my head in!

 

[FretlessMainly]

By that logic, he could just have easily said that ♭9 implies ♭3.

But because the 3rd defines Major or Dominant vs. minor, and the alt chord is a Dom7 chord, it seems far more proper to think of b9 and #9 with a natural 3rd rather than a b9 with a b3 and a natural 3rd.

 

[Bainbridge]

I wholly agree. As I said earlier:

I try to avoid too many occurrences of the same number. If you're going by the "melodic minor harmony" interpretation, then this is technically what the chord is: 1 ♭3 ♭5 ♭7 ♭9 ♭11 ♭13. No repetitions whatsoever. However, nobody likes to see ♭11, so they change it to "3", which makes sense since that's how that tone typically functions. But then we have two types of 3's, which is weird, so "♭3" is changed to "#9", since that's the Jimmy chord. Now there are two types of 9's, but everybody knows that one of those ninths is an actual ninth, and the other ninth is actually a third. "#9" also implies that it should be voiced above the 3, which is correct. So, there's a lot of fuss about the ninths, but we're willing to live with two of them. I wouldn't start messing with the fifths, but if that's what helps you to remember it, more power to ya.

I'd just like to call attention to the fact that this...

back in the day a instructor of mine at Berklee would always say

... is not a very good reason to believe something. That's good when you're learning, because how else are you going to know, but the way that one comes to understand anything is through testing the ideas that they are taught and coming to a conclusion through logic and observation.

 

[eddododo]

Id say technically that an alt chord uses 'fully altered' language, which is to say a scale with every possible alteration (b 9 # 9, #11, #5 (b5) ). It gets complicated when people just use it as a default 'colored' 7 chord, either from lazyness or ignorance...

My keyboardist calls EVERYTHING alt.. he usually just means #9.


Without sucking myself in too deep, I find an eyeopening approach (though only if you remember the other approaches) is to look at variation 7th chords as outside chords floating on 7th chords:
take C b9 #5 (C13#5 b9 #11)
You have C E G Bb Db F# A
Via the A, the Db (c#) and E you have an A major triad 'floating' in the C7, not to mention the G, which could be a 7 of a, meaning theres a whole separate A7 within the chord... these can make some interesting 'outside' scales (C Db E F# G A Bb)

If you use the 'half-whole diminished' scale over ALT chords, you have several 'identical' chords on different roots
i.e.
C Db D# E F# G A Bb
arrange chords>>>{ C E G Bb } Db D# F# A (1 3 5 b7 b9 #9 #11 13) you have a C7 with all of the altered tones floating
now, if youre paying close attention, you may have noticed that the scale I used is symmetrical. what does that mean? you can use symmetry (which is almost always a startling sound in music!!) to sub out the c7 chord

so by rearranging the above chord with the scale, you can rebuild it as an A7 with the same b9 #9 #11 13 floating over it
(A Db (c#) E G Bb C D# (Eb) F# (1 3 5 b7 b9 #9 #11 13 again)

 

[Pacman]

But then we have two types of 3's, which is weird, so "♭3" is changed to "#9", since that's the Jimmy chord.

I'm pretty sure that's not why they call it a #9 chord...

 

[Bainbridge]

I'm pretty sure that's not why they call it a #9 chord...

Okay, a real answer. The 7(#9) chord comes out of blues harmony. You see E7, you play an E minor pentatonic scale on top of it with an inflected blue note. The composite of the two gets you this:

E G G# A B♭ B D

Those near notes (G and G#, B♭ and B) made their way into the language of dominant chords by way of the blues.

 

[eddododo]

Okay, a real answer. The 7(#9) chord comes out of blues harmony. You see E7, you play an E minor pentatonic scale on top of it with an inflected blue note. The composite of the two gets you this:

E G G# A B♭ B D

Those near notes (G and G#, B♭ and B) made their way into the language of dominant chords by way of the blues.

I think the magic of what happens here is the mixing of major and minor.. or perhaps more directly the addition of tritones. so many of the dirty and/or epic sounds in music are the result of superimposing different modes of a parallel root ( mixing c maj and minor). the magic of a dominant chord is, besides its inherent ability to create tension to resolve, is the embedded tritone. it is a powerful mode (mixolydian) to 'live' in, so by adding 'borrowed' tones from minor you add a lot of character and dirtyness thanks to the addition of extra semitones, extra embedded tritones, and the afformentioned added drama from borrowing from minor

 

[Milestones]

The other reason to call it a #9 is because it implies that the note is above the major 3rd in the voicing. Try playing a dom 7 #9 chord with the #9 an octave and a half step below the major third and you'll hear it sounds pretty much like ass.

I agree with Bainbridge that we shouldn't just believe blindly in our teachers - especially the Berklee harmony curriculum. It's good for contemporary pop and modern jazz, but it has sucked the meaning and life out of the real jazz language. The sound and the music always come first, with a theorist following soon after, eager to make it a rule.

 

[Mike Dimin]

I wholly agree. As I said earlier:



I'd just like to call attention to the fact that this...



... is not a very good reason to believe something. That's good when you're learning, because how else are you going to know, but the way that one comes to understand anything is through testing the ideas that they are taught and coming to a conclusion through logic and observation.

hey, I remember you ... back in those early days when I was one of the original Ask The Pro's - right here at talkbass. Your'e the guy who always has the answer. Your'e the guy who only needs to be 20% sure before you speak. I remember, so vividly, why I left .. and looks like I'm sorry I'm back

The #9 and Blue 3rd, although the same note are used very differently and named differently. In the key of E a 2nd MUST be some sort of an F. The #9 in the key of E is a F## not a G. If the note is named a G, it must be some quality of the 3rd

I am glad I was able to assist and give some understanding to the OP. The rest of you can argue all you want

 

[Groove Master]

Let's not forget that the Alt chord is also called the Super Locrian scale which is the Locrian mode with a major third instead of the perfect fourth.

Another thing to take in consideration is that every Alt chord can be substitute by its triton. Meaning that the B7 alt can be actually a dominant lydian F13(#11) if the bass plays an F instead of a B. Both chords are built from the same C minor melodic scale.

 

[Mike Dimin]

Let's not forget that the Alt chord is also called the Super Locrian scale which is the Locrian mode with a major third instead of the perfect fourth.

Another thing to take in consideration is that every Alt chord can be substitute by its triton. Meaning that the B7 alt can be actually a dominant lydian F13(#11) if the bass plays an F instead of a B. Both chords are built from the same C minor melodic scale.

+1 whatever you want to call it as long as it helps you get through the tune (and allows you to communicate with others)!

 

[Stick_Player]

what would be the chord tones to this Balt chord here, this is from beautiful love.
How do you find out what the Alt chord is in any context? How do you know what to play over it?
please open the attachment for the progression!

I couldn't make it through most of this thread...

Altered Dominant Chord: Raise or lower the Fifth. B7 Alt. = B, D#, F##, A - or - B, D#, F, A.

OFTEN the Ninth is also altered up or down, and generally in the same direction as the altered Fifth.

Possibilities:

B, D#, F##, A, C##

B, D#, F, A, C

The raised Ninth (#9) is NOT the "Blue-Note", nor does it function as such. And lose the "Jimmy Chord" label.

Raised chord tones resolve up, lowered chord tones resolve down.

Yes, the scale that is often paired with an Altered Dominant is the Seventh Mode of the Melodic Minor Scale - but, there are several enharmonics to deal with.

Example: The scale paired with the B Alt. chord (B, D#, F##, A, C##) would be C Melodic Minor starting on the seventh step: B, C, D, Eb, F, G, A, B

Enharmonically respell this scale to: B, C, C##, D#, F, F##, A, B and you have all the chord tones of the Altered Dominant:

Root: B
Major Third: D#
Diminished Fifth: F
Augmented Fifth: F##
Minor Seventh: A
Minor Ninth: C
Augmented Ninth: C##

Simple as that.

DO NOT confuse X7(#5) chords with X7(b13). Different functions.

Usually, an X7(#5) chord is paired with a Whole Tone Scale. The X7(b13) is paired with the Mixolydian b2 b6 Scale.

 

[Groove Master]

+1 whatever you want to call it as long as it helps you get through the tune (and allows you to communicate with others)!

Yep, I just wanted to bring another side regarding this chord.

So, actually to answer the OP, pretty much every note of the scale can be a chord-tone

 

[Bainbridge]

hey, I remember you ... back in those early days when I was one of the original Ask The Pro's - right here at talkbass. Your'e the guy who always has the answer. Your'e the guy who only needs to be 20% sure before you speak. I remember, so vividly, why I left .. and looks like I'm sorry I'm back

Perhaps it was somebody else who you are thinking of; I only joined last year. However, I couldn't care less that you don't like the way I present myself. My information is well-founded.

The #9 and Blue 3rd, although the same note are used very differently and named differently. In the key of E a 2nd MUST be some sort of an F. The #9 in the key of E is a F## not a G. If the note is named a G, it must be some quality of the 3rd

And how exactly do the two differ in function? With a plain old dominant seventh, the functional tones are the third and the seventh. Everything else is a color tone. Since ♭3 and #9 are going to sound identical, and since voice leading is not as important when it comes to color tones, I'm going to conclude that spelling depends largely on the line. Looking really quickly at the Real Book, I can easily find support for my statement.

(Key signature is F major for the first one, F minor for the second.)

This is probably because not everybody wants to look at double-sharps and double-flats everywhere. Mark Levine, in The Jazz Theory Book, spells it more frequently as ♭3 than #9, probably for the same or similar reasons.

 

[MarkMgibson]

While I'm more of a guitarist than a bass player (though I'm getting betting thanks to TB), I'd just play over an altered chord the same way I would if it were a 7th chord. Just remember it's the 5th or 9th notes that are altered (or omitted) and sometimes b13 or other notes added, . So if you're unsure, stick with the root, the third, or the 7th and it's hard to go wrong.

If you want to be more adventurous, the scale I was taught long ago for altered chords was the "Super Locrian Scale" (that Groove Master mentioned). I don't use it that much (mostly in minor blues) but it sounds very cool indeed when you get it right. It always makes me think of George Benson - he used it often to great effect.

 

[Stick_Player]

And how exactly do the two differ in function? With a plain old dominant seventh, the functional tones are the third and the seventh. Everything else is a color tone. Since ♭3 and #9 are going to sound identical, and since voice leading is not as important when it comes to color tones, I'm going to conclude that spelling depends largely on the line. Looking really quickly at the Real Book, I can easily find support for my statement.

To comment, it would be necessary to see/hear the harmony (chords) that follow the X7#9 chords/melody, in your examples.

Do not rely on the "accuracy" of the Real Book. In my edition (Probably the original one), the 17th measure of "Stella by Starlight", has the chord labeled G+7 and the melody note written as Eb (E-flat). Conflict. The chord is really G7(b13). Use the same four notes that Mozart would - G, B, F, Eb.

Misspellings can be used for easier reading or because of ignorance.

 

[eddododo]

I think a point being missed is that #9 implies that there is (has to be) a major third as well.

If youre arranging, you wont write an E and an Eb on the same chord if you can at all avoid it.

Beyond bad sightreading, any good musician will hear the note in context before they play it.
Transcribe a jazz melody with a #9, then retranscribe it with a written b3. If a dr. of jazz in the audience can tell the difference, ill sell all my gear right now