Chord tones for an Alt chord

[jblmusic1994]

Use the same four notes that Mozart would - G, B, F, Eb.

Can you elaborate for me?

 

[Stick_Player]

Can you elaborate for me?

Four-part voice leading practice would use the Root, Third, Seventh and Thirteenth. Omitting the Fifth, Ninth and Eleventh.

Voicing a Dominant Thirteenth would be: Root, Major Third, Minor Seventh, Major Thirteenth. Ex. G13 = G, B, F, A

Voicing a Dominant Flat-Thirteenth would be: Root, Major Third, Minor Seventh, Minor Thirteenth. Ex. Gb13 = G, B, F, Ab

The Thirteenth would resolve down to the Root of the Tonic, or the Ninth of the Tonic (most likely then to the Root -> 9-8 appoggiatura).

I don't have an example at hand of Mozart specifically, but in the Classical Period (of the Common Practice Period) this is how it was handled. If I can find a specific use by Mozart, I will post it.

Seems like the Perfect Fifth should to be present to fully appreciate the Flat-Thirteenth. But if the resolution is downward and there is no Fifth in the harmony, then it is a Flat-Thirteenth and NOT an Augmented Fifth (most likely resolving upward). Not sure if there were any uses of Altered Dominant Seventh chords in the Common Practice Period.

 

[jblmusic1994]

Four-part voice leading practice would use the Root, Third, Seventh and Thirteenth. Omitting the Fifth, Ninth and Eleventh.

Voicing a Dominant Thirteenth would be: Root, Major Third, Minor Seventh, Major Thirteenth. Ex. G13 = G, B, F, A

Voicing a Dominant Flat-Thirteenth would be: Root, Major Third, Minor Seventh, Minor Thirteenth. Ex. Gb13 = G, B, F, Ab

The Thirteenth would resolve down to the Root of the Tonic, or the Ninth of the Tonic (most likely then to the Root -> 9-8 appoggiatura).

I don't have an example at hand of Mozart specifically, but in the Classical Period (of the Common Practice Period) this is how it was handled. If I can find a specific use by Mozart, I will post it.

Seems like the Perfect Fifth should to be present to fully appreciate the Flat-Thirteenth. But if the resolution is downward and there is no Fifth in the harmony, then it is a Flat-Thirteenth and NOT an Augmented Fifth (most likely resolving upward). Not sure if there were any uses of Altered Dominant Seventh chords in the Common Practice Period.

Thanks. I didn't even know 13th chords were used then.

 

[Bainbridge]

I can't think of a specific Bach or Mozart example at the moment, though I'm pretty sure that I've encountered thirteenths in such music before. However, I do have an example of Robert Schumann doing an F13 chord here: Invalid Link Removed

First page, last system, fourth measure. This is hardly surprising, since Schumann lived during the 1800's. I'll pull up some Baroque thirteenth chord goodness if I can remember any such spots. There are certainly ninths all over Bach.

 

[Bainbridge]

To comment, it would be necessary to see/hear the harmony (chords) that follow the X7#9 chords/melody, in your examples.

Unfortunately, including the following measures won't be too helpful in this instance.

A real answer to the voice leading question is left open, since the 7(#9) chord in question does not function as a dominant in one example, and the melodic resolution is not seen in the other.

Another one:

But, as I mentioned, Mark Levine seems to have no qualms about spelling a #9 as a ♭3. Nor does Jamey Aebersold. I'd post images, but I don't want to go through the hassle of scanning my books right now.

Do not rely on the "accuracy" of the Real Book. In my edition (Probably the original one), the 17th measure of "Stella by Starlight", has the chord labeled G+7 and the melody note written as Eb (E-flat). Conflict.

...

Misspellings can be used for easier reading or because of ignorance.

While I agree that the the Real Book is hideously inaccurate (I've had to retranscribe on many occasions because an entire tune was flat out wrong. Never understood how that happened.), I agree with the pitch spellings presented above and I don't think that pitch names should be immutable because of their theoretical function. After all, if you're a horn player looking at a part, you're not going to care whether the line has B♭ or A# written in. Well, at least you won't care until there are all sorts of weird accidentals that make the line difficult to read. Besides, reharmonization is a huge part of jazz. Something that *should* be spelled as E# in one chord could easily be spelled as F in a substituting chord. Anyone who knows their harmony will easily see the enharmonic equivalency anyway. Keep it simple.

If youre arranging, you wont write an E and an Eb on the same chord if you can at all avoid it.

I've seen it done a hundred times, and I've done it a hundred times myself. I go the extra mile and write in courtesy accidentals for both tones, so I've never had a problem. Here is something from a Joe Pass PDF that a friend gave to me a long time ago:

Those "+5's" should be ♭13's. That aside, the spelling of the F7+5+9 [in reality, F7(♭13 #9) or F+7(#9)] is what I would like to see if I were reading this: there is an A and an A♭ on the chord, and both of them have accidentals. A♭ could easily be spelled as G#, but then there would be an augmented second in the melody (G# to F) that is awkward for reading, so I can live with seeing both A♭ and A♮ in the same chord. I don't know why the publisher wasn't consistent with this approach with the "B♭7+5+9" two bars earlier.

Beyond bad sightreading, any good musician will hear the note in context before they play it.
Transcribe a jazz melody with a #9, then retranscribe it with a written b3. If a dr. of jazz in the audience can tell the difference, ill sell all my gear right now

Exactly.

 

[Stick_Player]

A real answer to the voice leading question is left open, since the 7(#9) chord in question does not function as a dominant in one example, and the melodic resolution is not seen in the other.

Assuming that you are referring to the Gb7 #9 +11 (Gb, Bb, Db, Fb, A, C), couldn't you consider it a Tritone substitution for C7 b9 #11 13 (C, E, G, Bb, Db, F#, A).



What's the 2nd tune?

 

[Bainbridge]

Assuming that you are referring to the Gb7 #9 +11 (Gb, Bb, Db, Fb, A, C), couldn't you consider it a Tritone substitution for C7 b9 #11 13 (C, E, G, Bb, Db, F#, A).

The E7(#9) is the non-functional chord. That's All The Things You Are.

The other one is [A] Night In Tunisia. Of course the G♭7(#9) is a tritone sub, but instead of notes there's "Fmaj7 (solo break)", so you can't really say whether A or B♭♭ is appropriate for that bar. I'd tend toward A because B♭♭ makes little sense in the context of F∆.

 

[Stick_Player]

The E7(#9) is the non-functional chord. That's All The Things You Are.

Never seen those changes before.

I'm used to: || D♭∆7 | D♭m7 | Cm7 | Bº7 | B♭m7 | E♭7 | A♭∆7 | (G7 C7) :||

With the melody note of 'G', that Bº7 is most likely a G7.

The other one is [A] Night In Tunisia. Of course the G♭7(#9) is a tritone sub, but instead of notes there's "Fmaj7 (solo break)", so you can't really say whether A or B♭♭ is appropriate for that bar. I'd tend toward A because B♭♭ makes little sense in the context of F∆.

I'd suggest 'A' over 'B♭♭'.

'A' is the #9 of G♭7.

Or, 'A' is the 13 of C7.

 

[Pacman]

The E7(#9) is the non-functional chord. That's All The Things You Are.

I read that E7(#9) as a sub for V of ii. At least, that what it sounds like to my ears. I could be wrong.

 

[mambo4]

I find an eyeopening approach... is to look at variation 7th chords as outside chords floating on 7th chords:
take C b9 #5 (C13#5 b9 #11)
You have C E G Bb Db F# A
Via the A, the Db (c#) and E you have an A major triad 'floating' in the C7,
not to mention the G, which could be a 7 of A, meaning theres a whole separate A7 within the chord

...

If you use the 'half-whole diminished' scale over ALT chords, you have several 'identical' chords on different roots

I'm just gonna quote the above because I believe these superimposed triads is exactly the thinking which originated all those weird dominant chords.
It's pretty well established that the bebop pioneers 'thought' in chords, not scales.
Perhaps they approach soloing over these not as variants of single scale,
but as riffs that weave in and out of simpler triads involved.
It seems like a simpler and more freeing approach to me...
but all knowledge can be useful, of course.​

 

[Bainbridge]

Never seen those changes before.

I'm used to: || D♭∆7 | D♭m7 | Cm7 | Bº7 | B♭m7 | E♭7 | A♭∆7 | (G7 C7) :||

With the melody note of 'G', that Bº7 is most likely G7.

Yeah, they're weird changes; I too am used to B°7. I don't trust that book, but I was looking for examples of notation with the split third and it's in the first few pages. I find it interesting that the melody note is a functional tone of the chord in the standard changes, and an upper extension in this oddball harmonization, yet both sets of changes are not really functional. I kind of like the approach. Maybe I'll try playing with the E7 sometime.

I read that E7(#9) as a sub for V of ii. At least, that what it sounds like to my ears. I could be wrong.

V/iii, surely.

 

[Bainbridge]

I'm just gonna quote the above because I believe these superimposed triads is exactly the thinking which originated all those weird dominant chords.
It's pretty well established that the bebop pioneers 'thought' in chords, not scales.
Perhaps they approach soloing over these not as variants of single scale,
but as riffs that weave in and out of simpler triads involved.
It seems like a simpler and more freeing approach to me...
but all knowledge can be useful, of course.​

Upper structures. Good point. Certainly, this thinking is responsible for at least some of the modern harmonic language.