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Chords....

Oct 31, 2009
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So I was watching a Carol Kaye video on youtube earlier today, and she stressed many times the importance of knowing your chordal notes. Obviously I know what a chord is, and how a major chord is constructed, but that's about it.

I was wondering if anyone would be able to show me around a bit, how to get the relevant chords from the modes etc... if that makes sense?

Very confusing!
 
Evil Undead said:
So I was watching a Carol Kaye video on youtube earlier today, and she stressed many times the importance of knowing your chordal notes. Obviously I know what a chord is, and how a major chord is constructed, but that's about it.

I was wondering if anyone would be able to show me around a bit, how to get the relevant chords from the modes etc... if that makes sense?

Very confusing!

I think she was talking about how important it is to know the notes of the chords you are playing. Just chord construction.
 
Chords are made from the odd numbered intervals in a scale: 1, 3, 5. Many chords add the 7. Then others add higher extension notes which are the even numbered notes up an octave: 9, 11, 13.
That's the simplest summary i can think of, off the top of my head. :)
 
So I was watching a Carol Kaye video on youtube earlier today, and she stressed many times the importance of knowing your chordal notes. Obviously I know what a chord is, and how a major chord is constructed, but that's about it.

I was wondering if anyone would be able to show me around a bit, how to get the relevant chords from the modes etc... if that makes sense?

Very confusing!
Nothing new - the other posts have you going in the right direction. Perhaps a different slant will help.

Lets try this with the scales first after you understand how to get the chords for a scale - then you can take on modes. Just start with the notes of the mode and then stack 3rds.

As mentioned stacking 3rds - every other note in the scale gets you the chords for that scale. Play with this see where it takes you.

Take the scale then by skipping a note you build the chords for that scale. Skip a note is an easy way to identify the notes within the chords of that scale. From that you can then using the chord’s spelling to name the chord, i.e. 3 = major, b3 = minor, 7 = maj7, b7 = dominant seventh or minor seventh, m7b5 = ½ diminished, b5 bb7 = Diminished, etc. From there you can identify that specific chord’s function within the key, i.e. I-IV-V, etc. This chart can be used as a study of how chords are formed.
Code:
A Major 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Note	Chord		Spelling		Chord Name		Function
A	A-C#-E-G#	R-3-5-7		Amaj7			I	Tonic						
B	B-D-F#-A	R-b3-5-b7	Bm7			ii
C#	C#-E-G#-B	R-b3-5-b7	C#m7			iii
D	D-F#-A-C#	R-3-5-7		Dmaj7			IV     Subdominant
E	E-G#-B-D	R-3-5-b7	E7			V      Dominant
F#	F#-A-C#-E	R-b3-5-b7	F#m7			iv
G#	G#-B-D-F#	R-b3-b5-b7	G#m7b5			vii ½ dim 
Notice to get the chord spelling you compare the notes you got from stacking 
3rds with the chord's tonic scale, i.e. the Bm7 chord compare this with the 
B major scale B, C#, D#, E, F#, G#, A#.  The D# and the A# must be flatted 
to be the same notes you came up with.   Therefore the chord spelling for
Bm7 is R-b3-5-b7.  Which tells us it is 1) minor because it has a b3 and 2) it 
is a minor seventh because of the b7th.


Code:
A Natural Minor 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7
Note	Chord 		Spelling		Chord Name		Function
A	A-C-E-G		1-b3-5-b7	Amin 7			I	   (tonic)	
B	B-D-F-A		1-b3-b5-b7	Bmin7b5			ii ½ dim
C	C-E-G-B		1-3-5-7		Cmaj 7			bIII	
D	D-F-A-C		1-b3-5-b7	Dmin 7			iv   (subdominant)
E	E-G-B-D		1-b3-5-b7	Emin 7			v	(dominant)
F	F-A-C-E		1-3-5-7		Fmaj 7			bVI	
G	G-B-D-F		1-3-5-b7	G7			bVII

This may help. http://www.smithfowler.org/music/Chord_Formulas.htm

Playing from fake chord sheet music you see the chord named, let's say it is a Cmaj7 chord. Here are some of your choices for a bass line:
Roots of the C note played C, C, C, C following the beat of the song. Then when the chord changes to the F you play F, F, F, F or........
R-5-R-5
R-5-8-5
Major chords will have a 3 in their makeup so you could try something with roots, fives or eights or add the 3 - R-3-5-8 for C major.
Minor chords will have a b3 in their makeup so you could try a R-b3-5-8 for Cm.
That Cmaj7 is a major chord so we know R-3-5- is going to work and if we add a 7 - R-3-5-7 we get the full chord tone for the Cmaj7 chord.
Now a dominant seventh and minor seventh chord would use a b7. C7 = R-3-5-b7 and Cm7 = R-b3-5-b7.
The 6 is neutral it'll go with major or minor chords - I like R-3-5-6 with a major chord.
The 2 and 4 make good passing notes, just do not linger or land on them.
The diminished chord will have a b5 flatted 5th and it is a minor chord so you have R-b3-b5 for a diminished chord. R-b3-b5-b7 for the 1/2 diminished chord (one with the circle with a line through it) and the full diminished chord is R-b3-b5-bb7.

Sometime just roots work just fine and other times a full 4 note chord tone is called for. The song dictates what is needed. Most of the time roots, fives, eights and the correct 3 will play a lot of bass.

That's it in a nut shell. Next is how do you get your C major chord walking to the F chord? Let's see C major tells me that R-3-5 will work for the C major chord and Scott Devine tells us that R-3-5-X will work great as a walking bass line to the F. What's X? http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f22/walking-bass-lesson-crash-course-762653/

Have fun.
 
Ignore the mode. Learn how to spell basic chords in any key (which means you have to know how to build the diatonic major scale in any key- don't use a chart, learn the formula for building the scale, and work this stuff out on your own. And learn the intervals that build the chords. For example, you say you "...know what a chord is, and how a major chord is constructed". That means you know that a major chord is 1, 3, and 5 of the major scale, right? You should also know that a major chord is a major third with a minor third stacked on top.

Major chord triad 1 3 5 Maj - min
Minor chord triad 1 b3 5 min - maj
Dom 7 chord 1 3 5 b7 Maj - min - min
Augmented 1 3 #5 Maj - maj - maj
Diminished triad 1 b3 b5 min - min - min
Maj7 1 3 5 7 Maj - min - maj
Min7 1 b3 5 b7 min - maj - min
Diminished 7 1 b3 b5 bb7 min - min - min (and know why it's called the double flat 7 and not the 6th, even though they sound the same).

From there, learn to harmonize the scale by stacking thirds, and working out for yourself WHY they are what they are. It's not really enough in my opinion to memorize that the I and IV are major 7, the V is a dominant 7, the ii, iii and vi are minor 7 and the vii is minor 7 b5 (or half-diminished). You need to see and understand WHY it is. After you have that in your head and under your fingers, modes will both become obvious and mostly pointless.

How to harmonize the scale? WRITE it out- (do this in all 12 keys for yourself- don't take the lazy way out and just read this) like this for the key of C...


C D E F G A B C

Then stack the third (stay in the key of C throughout!!) on top...
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C
Remember, we're looking at these as stacks of notes because that's what they are. So you've got a C with an E on top, a D with an F on top, etc.

... and then stack another third on top of those two to get the triads...
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

... and one more time to get the 7th chords...
B C D E F G A B
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

NOW use what you've learned about chords to figure out that the first chord (C E G B) is CMaj7, the second stack (D F A C) is Dmin7, the third one is Emin7, the fourth is FMaj7, the fifth is G7, the sixth is Amin7, and the seventh stack is Bmin7b5.

That's what Carol's teaching is coming from. Knowing the chord and knowing the harmonized scale (I think she calls it "the chordal scale"). That will help you be a better bass player faster than any study of modes and other scale can hope to.

John
 
I love chords. While you may not be playing all four (or however many) strings at once, you do get a lot of color & expression. It opened up a lot for me.
You can find guitar chord charts for free online or even on a mobile. Of course, you'll have to reduce or ignore the strings that don't apply or play them up on your neck.

I use Chordmaster by Planet Waves on my phone. It's free. Maj, min, dom, dim--every chord, every type. E.g. C# maj7#5#11. What the heck is that? C#Min11flat6. Like I said, color. And if you write songs you may find that these unusual chords inspire or reinforce your writing.
 
The above posts cover most of the basics, so I'll just add:
Constructing chords and harmonizing scales becomes astoundingly clear when viewed notated on the staff.

hey mambo4,
you always give great input. (that sounds nasty:hiding:)
i'm an intermediate player that "knows" most of what was written above, but haven't internalized it at all. still working on that.

what is so clear when looking at the notated staff? i know that the 3 chord tones are easily recognized (space/space/space, or line/line/line) but in order to know if it's major or minor, you have to know the key intimately or the chord types within a given key. are there other easily recognized patterns on the staff that are helpful for chord tones and harmony?
 
blakelock said:
hey mambo4,
you always give great input. (that sounds nasty:hiding:)
i'm an intermediate player that "knows" most of what was written above, but haven't internalized it at all. still working on that.

what is so clear when looking at the notated staff? i know that the 3 chord tones are easily recognized (space/space/space, or line/line/line) but in order to know if it's major or minor, you have to know the key intimately or the chord types within a given key. are there other easily recognized patterns on the staff that are helpful for chord tones and harmony?

If you know the notes at sight on the staff, you will (eventually) be able to recognize major or minor very quickly - without knowing the key.

C - E - G is a major triad, regardless of key

F# - A - C# is a minor triad, regardless of key

When you see these notes stacked on the staff, you know that the relationships between them determine the major or minor status we give them.
 
what is so clear when looking at the notated staff? i know that the 3 chord tones are easily recognized (space/space/space, or line/line/line) but in order to know if it's major or minor, you have to know the key intimately or the chord types within a given key. are there other easily recognized patterns on the staff that are helpful for chord tones and harmony?

I was mostly referring to seeing the dots stack up neatly, a result of the staff lines/spaces being arranged in 3rds.
Identifying Chord qualities requires you to apply some theory (knowing your intervals given 2 note names)
and a look at the key signature.

When given the usual formula Malcom outlines above,
(I maj, ii min, iii min, IV maj, Vmaj [dom], vi min, vii dim)
Its common to ask "why?" but notating it on the staff +correct key signature makes it clear that it's the natural way the harmonies unfold within a given key.

Also, given the potential language confusion ( "third?" third WHAT? chord? scale tone? chord tone?)
the staff eliminates all ambiguity: the notes are right there, unambiguously.
 
mambo4 said:
I was mostly referring to seeing the dots stack up neatly, a result of the staff lines/spaces being arranged in 3rds.
Identifying Chord qualities requires you to apply some theory (knowing your intervals given 2 note names)
and a look at the key signature.

When given the usual formula Malcom outlines above,
(I maj, ii min, iii min, IV maj, Vmaj [dom], vi min, vii dim)
Its common to ask "why?" but notating it on the staff +correct key signature makes it clear that it's the natural way the harmonies unfold within a given key.

Also, given the potential language confusion ( "third?" third WHAT? chord? scale tone? chord tone?)
the staff eliminates all ambiguity: the notes are right there, unambiguously.

I respectfully disagree with the last point. A third is a third. It is the note three notes from the note in question (ascending). The third of the Cmaj chord is the same as the third of the C major scale.

If the musician knows how to read music on the staff, as you stated, a quick glance at the arrangement of thirds and any accompanying accidentals will clearly indicate the nature of the chord (ie. major or minor).

IME if the staff has a key signature, and is a written composition, it becomes more clear b/c the chords will also be present.
 
I appreciate that it's clear for most who already know this stuff.
But the fact is that The language has confused some on this forum.
the english word "three" is used for chords, scale tones, and chord tones
yet folks often simply type "3" without clarification.
Also, I have seen confusion between the 3rd of the key versus the 3rd of iii chord (the 7th of the key)
In these ways, the language IS confusing. The notation is not.
 
mambo4 said:
I appreciate that it's clear for most who already know this stuff.
But the fact is that The language has confused some on this forum.
the english word "three" is used for chords, scale tones, and chord tones
yet folks often simply type "3" without clarification.
Also, I have seen confusion between the 3rd of the key versus the 3rd of iii chord (the 7th of the key)
In these ways, the language IS confusing. The notation is not.

+1

I didn't look at it that way mambo. Well said.
 

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