CITES - What every bass player should know

[Jim Carr]

IMHO, the attacks on Fish and Wildlife in some of the posts above are misguided and IMHO largely misinformed. The individuals from Fish and Wildlife I have had the honor to know have literally devoted their lives to serving the american people. Their work is hard. It requires brains, education, ethics, creativity, and diligence you can't imagine.

They protect and restore our heritage from environmental threats and prevent criminal actions by deeply selfish individuals, corporations, and governments. They don't make the laws, but they do use the power of environmental and biological science to implement the legislated laws and treaties made and agreed to by the elected government of the american people.

Do they always do everything right? Are they perfect? No. So what? Can't the same be said for everyone? Why should the perfect be the enemy of the good? Fish and Wildlife do a great job, and their responsibilities extend beyond horizons that few of us have glimpsed.

Getting permits to travel overseas with an ivory tipped double bass bow or the Dalbergia Nigra fingerboard on your Sadowsky is NOT catastrophic. Losing forever multiple rainforest tree species, elephants, or dozens of major food stock fish species from our oceans most certainly IS.

Forgive, but do not heed the usual crop of angry gloomsters, doomsters, and conspiracy bugs. IMHO, it is cultivated fearful ignorance and even outright hatred they spout. How can that help ANYTHING? IMHO, it is time for musicians to take a much deeper and sincere interest in the biological and environmental impact of our tools, our music, and our words. Blaming the Fish and Wildlife folks for a problem they have not created is not the right path.

 

[peterpalmieri]

Jim I agree with your comments. Has it already been gone over how you would apply for a permit? Sorry if I missed it.

 

[Mitchthebassplayer]

has anyone here actually had an instrument inspected/taken?? I've been touring around the world for about 6 years now and I've been to Asia, Europe, South America, Canada, and Israel several times over. I've brought everything from vintage Fenders to super expensive Foderas with Mahogany and Braz RW. Not ONCE, have I ever been stopped or asked to show anyone my instrument. I was even thrown out of the UK one time for not having the correct documentation, but not a single person asked me what was in my gig bag. I've heard that dealers shipping instruments through customs are the one's that have to be inspected, but I don't know of anyone personally that has had their instrument inspected or taken at customs on the way to a gig. I'd love/hate to hear some stories if anyone has experienced this....

 

[Turnaround]

There have been a number of questions raised about "grandfathering" older instruments, instrument certificates, etc. I thought it would be a good idea to pass along a link to a number of well-written articles on the subject published by the Fretboard Journal. If you dig into this information you will find a number of blog radio programs they produced as well. Check out this link:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[Farfetched]

I'd really like to know this as well. Especially in the case of buying vintage fenders from across the border.

has anyone here actually had an instrument inspected/taken?? I've been touring around the world for about 6 years now and I've been to Asia, Europe, South America, Canada, and Israel several times over. I've brought everything from vintage Fenders to super expensive Foderas with Mahogany and Braz RW. Not ONCE, have I ever been stopped or asked to show anyone my instrument. I was even thrown out of the UK one time for not having the correct documentation, but not a single person asked me what was in my gig bag. I've heard that dealers shipping instruments through customs are the one's that have to be inspected, but I don't know of anyone personally that has had their instrument inspected or taken at customs on the way to a gig. I'd love/hate to hear some stories if anyone has experienced this....

 

[BlueTalon]

Do they always do everything right? Are they perfect? No. So what? Can't the same be said for everyone? Why should the perfect be the enemy of the good? Fish and Wildlife do a great job, and their responsibilities extend beyond horizons that few of us have glimpsed.

Getting permits to travel overseas with an ivory tipped double bass bow or the Dalbergia Nigra fingerboard on your Sadowsky is NOT catastrophic. Losing forever multiple rainforest tree species, elephants, or dozens of major food stock fish species from our oceans most certainly IS.

Forgive, but do not heed the usual crop of angry gloomsters, doomsters, and conspiracy bugs. IMHO, it is cultivated fearful ignorance and even outright hatred they spout. How can that help ANYTHING? IMHO, it is time for musicians to take a much deeper and sincere interest in the biological and environmental impact of our tools, our music, and our words. Blaming the Fish and Wildlife folks for a problem they have not created is not the right path.

People are allowed to be imperfect. Law Enforcement agencies are not, they have a higher standard that must be adhered to. Expecting them to maintain that standard is not hate.

As someone mentioned earlier, a regulation or law that is difficult-to-impossible for average citizens to understand and comply with is a poorly crafted regulation or law. The problem isn't necessarily Fish & Wildlife per se, it's the lack of consistency in enforcement of regulations among several government agencies. The lack of consistency can be attributed to poor wording and unclear intent in the original regulation, lack of communication between agencies, and lack of consistent and proper training for on-the-ground enforcers in all agencies.

I am perfectly willing to comply with a reasonable conservation law that is consistently enforced. It is not unreasonable to expect LEOs to understand the law, and it is not unreasonable to expect there to be a readily available means of compliance.

 

[neal davis]

has anyone here actually had an instrument inspected/taken?? I've been touring around the world for about 6 years now and I've been to Asia, Europe, South America, Canada, and Israel several times over. I've brought everything from vintage Fenders to super expensive Foderas with Mahogany and Braz RW. Not ONCE, have I ever been stopped or asked to show anyone my instrument. I was even thrown out of the UK one time for not having the correct documentation, but not a single person asked me what was in my gig bag. I've heard that dealers shipping instruments through customs are the one's that have to be inspected, but I don't know of anyone personally that has had their instrument inspected or taken at customs on the way to a gig. I'd love/hate to hear some stories if anyone has experienced this....

Christian mcbride had his bow seized, a friend in Toronto had is 64 p bass seized going into michigan, these are two incidents I personally know of in the past month and a half.

 

[Jim Carr]

People are allowed to be imperfect. Law Enforcement agencies are not, they have a higher standard that must be adhered to. Expecting them to maintain that standard is not hate...

Consider this:

"...the thing that makes me curious is how they will handle instruments which the player knows do not contain endangered species, but that Fish and Wildlife official decides would look pretty nice in their practice room at home? ...Who has burden of proof if the F&W official claims it is Brazilian Rosewood? Would the player have to have some kind of documentation even if there are no endangered species, just to protect the instrument?

...I used to go duck hunting on a semi frequent basis...and was witness to amazing scenes of stupidity on the part of what I can only call bully minded F&W officials...Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

IMHO, failure of our institutions is as inevitable as the failures of it's imperfect personnel. Laws exist for redress, which of course rely on other imperfectly constituted institutions.

 

[BlueTalon]

Consider this:

"...the thing that makes me curious is how they will handle instruments which the player knows do not contain endangered species, but that Fish and Wildlife official decides would look pretty nice in their practice room at home? ...Who has burden of proof if the F&W official claims it is Brazilian Rosewood? Would the player have to have some kind of documentation even if there are no endangered species, just to protect the instrument?

...I used to go duck hunting on a semi frequent basis...and was witness to amazing scenes of stupidity on the part of what I can only call bully minded F&W officials...Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

IMHO, failure of our institutions is as inevitable as the failures of it's imperfect personnel. Laws exist for redress, which of course rely on other imperfectly constituted institutions.

The two quotes in your post contain quite reasonable questions, complaints, and observations, IMO., and it's exactly because there are NO means of redress for those situations where something is wrongfully confiscated because of ignorance or misidentification.

 

[Sal Z.]

This topic has arisen in different threads, but I thought it deserved a thread of its own, since it is so important to musical instrument makers and owners alike.

CITES is the Convention for International Trade in Endangered Species. The legislation from it is having a profound effect on instrument makers since it restricts their ability to source and use woods that are classified as "endangered". CITES is used to restrict the import and export of these endangered species - i.e. it legally prevents such species from crossing international boundaries.

But the problem is not just with manufacturers. If you own an instrument that has any part made from any of the species listed in CITES, and you cross an international boundary, your instrument may be seized. If you live outside the US and need service to your Martin guitar (they have a lifetime warranty to the original owner), should you send your instrument to Martin it will likely be confiscated at the border if it has any Brazilian rosewood.

There are a number of cited species used by instrument makers including some Cocobolo, a number of Rosewoods, Grenadillo, some Mahoganies, same Sandalwoods, some Yews an numerous others.

When crossing the border, your instrument may be examined and if any of the woods seem to be a designated species, the instrument will likely be seized. Part of the problem is that it's not always easy to identify a designated species from one that is not named in CITES. Cocobolo is a good example of such a wood. Cocobolo from Panama is restricted, but that from Mexico is not. They look almost identical. The only way to tell for sure is in a testing laboratory, and to do the testing a sample of the wood must be taken.

Recently some instruments were shipped to a retailer in Canada from a manufacturer in California. The top wood on these basses was Cocobolo, from Mexico - not from Panama. In order to ensure the instruments would not be confiscated at the border, the manufacturer had to prove to the authorities in the USA that Cocobolo was sourced from Mexico, and had to pay for US certification. The certificates for each instrument had to be include in the shipment. Despite that, the instruments were held at the Canadian border - because the included documentation were photocopies. The shipper had held the originals and sent the copies. Not good enough.

As far as I know there is no mechanism for having your instrument officially certified free of designated species under CITES. The instruments in the case above now have certification, but that's only because the manufacturer was able to prove the source of the materials. If you don't already have such certification from the manufacturer you may find it difficult to get. Even then it may not satisfy the officials at the border.

Here's a link to the USDA CITES Timber Species Manual. Perhaps it should be required reading for anyone who owns an instrument.

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Please add any information you have to this thread.

Thank you for sharing. I recently had a discussion on this exact subject. Very Sad News

 

[ella basses]

When crossing the border, your instrument may be examined and if any of the woods seem to be a designated species, the instrument will likely be seized. Part of the problem is that it's not always easy to identify a designated species from one that is not named in CITES. Cocobolo is a good example of such a wood. Cocobolo from Panama is restricted, but that from Mexico is not. They look almost identical. The only way to tell for sure is in a testing laboratory, and to do the testing a sample of the wood must be taken.

From my research (reading the cites appendices until I actually understood them) Cocobolo Dalbergia retusa is listed in the cite appendix ii and next to it in the list is annotated with a #6 which indicates that the restrictions apply only to "Logs, sawn wood, veneer sheets and plywood." So that tells me that a finished product made of Cocobolo should be able to cross borders. I did notice that Cocobolo was first listed in appendix iii but has since been upgraded to appendix ii. I imagine one day it will finally be upgraded to appendix i, where it will enjoy the same restrictions as BR, then they'll confiscate the dust out of your nose if you try to cross the border to soon after working with it.

 

[::::BASSIST::::]

I have a wenge/ebony neck I bought from Warmoth. Its currently for sale so this issue does concern me.

I emailed Warmoth to get more info and is their response:

Hello,

Any woods that have issues with international customs are not in our list of available woods.
All woods offered have no current restriction and are sourced through proper, long-standing
suppliers and provided to us with full documentation.

Thanks for allowing us the opportunity to serve you,
~SPIKE~

Warmoth Guitar Products
[email protected]

 

[Baird6869]

Christian mcbride had his bow seized, a friend in Toronto had is 64 p bass seized going into michigan, these are two incidents I personally know of in the past month and a half.

That scares me.

I can absolutely understand confiscating a guitar that contains protected/illegal woods and made after the rules/laws were put into place. Seizing an instrument made 50 years prior to the restrictions kinda baffles my mind.

I guess folks have been going thru similar with items such as tortoiseshell and ivory for many years.

One could argue that cutting down trees is as bad as killing turtles or elephants, but I won't go there.

 

[neal davis]

That scares me.

I can absolutely understand confiscating a guitar that contains protected/illegal woods and made after the rules/laws were put into place. Seizing an instrument made 50 years prior to the restrictions kinda baffles my mind.

I guess folks have been going thru similar with items such as tortoiseshell and ivory for many years.

One could argue that cutting down trees is as bad as killing turtles or elephants, but I won't go there.

It is a scary situation, it has led me to getting all new and non fancy touring gear. my vintage gear is staying home

 

[Tom Bomb]

Seems like things are working themselves out. Stranger things have happened. Coming from a different angle here, though still in the ballpark - the depth of the problem, for many people, might still be difficult to grasp. But the wisdom is there, somewhere.

When trying to understand the nature of the woods; what is it that our great forests of the North, and elsewhere, rely most heavily upon? Is it the sun? The seasons? Is it fresh water? The climate? Is it sound, sustainable policies and practices? (Pardon the pun) Is it all of the above?

What if it's actually a solid seafood diet? What if our forest giants depend most heavily on sashimi for their ultimate survival? Here's a little flick from the BBC that gets closer to the heart of this matter, environmentally speaking - this is not a red herring at all… it's a Invalid Link Removed - and a good indication of the extraordinary complexity in the equation for permitting truly sustainable natural systems and beautiful, timeless music in our time on Earth.

Above all now, there's one other critical thing - our forests and all the animals, us included, are now dependent on our wisdom and how we respond to the very real threat of environmental calamity.

In Invalid Link Removed, ecological economist Invalid Link Removed, The Nature Conservancy’s lead scientist Dr M Sanjayan and camerawoman Invalid Link Removed talk about the salmon’s unsung role in fertilising the forest. The bears who feast on the spawning salmon don’t eat on the river – they drag the carcasses far into the forest. The remains of the salmon contain vast quantities of nitrogen that plants need to grow. Eighty percent of the nitrogen in the forest’s trees comes from the salmon. In other words, these ocean dwellers are [another] crucial [piece of the puzzle] for the forest’s long-term survival.
[emphasis added.]

 

[Jim Carr]

Christian mcbride had his bow seized, a friend in Toronto had is 64 p bass seized going into michigan, these are two incidents I personally know of in the past month and a half.

McBride's bow was not "seized." It was lost or stolen by TSA. In this case, neither Fish and Wildlife nor CITES had anything to do with it (nor did the UN ). Christan McBride's missing bass bow was an ordinary carbon fiber double bass bow. It had no ivory, no rainforest woods, etc. The bow was either lost or stolen by Newark (EWR) TSA personnel. I am certain that eventually that will be made right, and the spolight on this case will help all musicians traveling. Also, the bow was insured.

You can see a thorough interview with Christian about the bow here:


or here https://www.facebook.com/officialchristianmcbride

I am not justifying stupidity by TSA. Who can? Lord knows I suffer from the "Theatrical Security Agency," as much or more than most, as I fly frequently with instruments. BTW, Christian says he has done more interviews about this than his last TEN cds.

Very sorry to hear about your friend's P-Bass. Can you get this bassist to join Talkbass and add to this thread? The details will matter to us all. I have traveled to Canada touring but never have had problems with my instruments. When was this? Where did the seizure occur? Was it a Michigan airport or at a boarder crossing? Was US customs, TSA, or CBSA involved? Why was it seized? What has he done since? Are there more facts we can know? Thanks.

 

[neal davis]

McBride's bow was not "seized." It was lost or stolen by TSA. In this case, neither Fish and Wildlife nor CITES had anything to do with it (nor did the UN ). Christan McBride's missing bass bow was an ordinary carbon fiber double bass bow. It had no ivory, no rainforest woods, etc. The bow was either lost or stolen by Newark (EWR) TSA personnel. I am certain that eventually that will be made right, and the spolight on this case will help all musicians traveling. Also, the bow was insured.

You can see a thorough interview with Christian about the bow here:


or here https://www.facebook.com/officialchristianmcbride

I am not justifying stupidity by TSA. Who can? Lord know I suffer from the "Theatrical Security Agency," as much or more than most, as I fly frequently with instruments. BTW, Christian says he has done more interviews about this than his last TEN cds.

Very sorry to hear about your friend's P-Bass. Can you get this bassist to join Talkbass and add to this thread? The details will matter to us all. I have traveled to Canada touring but never have had problems with my instruments. When was this? Where did the seizure occur? Was it a Micigan airport or at a boarder crossing? Was US customs, TSA, or CBSA involved? Why was it seized? What has he done since? Are there more facts we can know? Thanks.

I will pass on a link to him of the thread. It happened at the Sarnia crossing.

 

[Jim Carr]

I will pass on a link to him of the thread. It happened at the Sarnia crossing.

Still waiting for more details.

 

[neal davis]

I'll see when he responds to my email I sent him, he is currently on the road.

Still waiting for more details.

 

[devo_stevo]

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Not basses, but appropriate for this discussion. Sad days we live in...