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CITES - What every bass player should know

Now the Government can allocate millions of dollars to the war on wood! Maybe even create a new bureaucracy or 2 to enforce it? IDK, maybe call it the "Dept. Of Screwing Over Taxpayers And Law-Abiding Citizens Because We Make Broad Laws Without Think About How It Affects The Average Joe".. Or DOSOTALACBWMBLWTAHIATAJ for short. :facepalm:

Department of Woodland Security?
 
I am a bass player but my hobby is wood turning. I make bowls and artistic items from wood. Available for me to purchase are exotic burls which are incredibly beautiful but usually harvested from healthy living trees-sometime taking a hunk of it off a living tree people may not own. I have never bought this type of wood. The only wood I use to wood turn is fallen wood-dead trees or storm damaged wood usually local to Connecticut where I live part of the year. While I love to see and have a true appreciation of the exotic burls and beautiful Rainforest grown timber, I hope the bass community eventually ask where this came from and perhaps develop a conscious if endangered woods belong in their next bass guitar. Would that $6000 butterfly bass sound just as good using non exotic timber? Perhaps. Just as fur coats have gone out of fashion because it was the skin of an animal, maybe in years to come endangered wood and burled instruments will generate a similar response from people as many people dislike fur coats today. I am not endorsing taking peoples instruments away and I think that is wrong but I would like the members of the bass community to give thought to what types of woods you choose from for your next boutique bass you buy Perhaps the bass might be as repulsive as wearing an exotic fur coat in years to come.
 
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Maybe someone already posted this, but just a few days ago I read an interesting article about musical instruments containing ivory (i.e. some DB bow tips): http://www.notreble.com/buzz/2014/06/25/tsa-not-so-bassist-friendly/

In summary, Christian McBride had his bow confiscated (in his words, "stolen"), by TSA personnel, for no justified reason. Something similar happened to hungarian musicians: "This month, U.S. customs agents at New York’s John F. Kennedy International Airport refused clearance for ivory-tipped bows owned by members of the Budapest Festival Orchestra because the items lacked proper permits".

Oh, lovely Uncle Sam attitude.
 
it goes beyond uncle sam. it is global in scope and design. it is agenda 21.

to give you extra insight, research what happened with Gibson guitars when they got raided, a few times. at the surface it looks like they didn't "give at the office" but it is agenda 21 that is calling the shots.
 
I believe Agenda 21 is non-binding, and must be locally legislated. It's my opinion that legislating retroactively, making older musical instruments illegal to travel with (though they weren't illegal at the time of purchase) is unintelligent. Accommodating reasonable exceptions should be a normal part of law-making, which is not the case in the US today in this regard (I can't see the relationship with the Gibson issue, as they knowingly broke a pre-existing law).

More articles about this topic: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed], here and here. And a whole bunch here.
 
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Ferk you wrote:"I believe Agenda 21 is non-binding, and must be locally legislated. It's my opinion that legislating retroactively, making older musical instruments illegal to travel with (though they weren't illegal at the time of purchase) is unintelligent. Accommodating reasonable exceptions should be a normal part of law-making, which is not the case in the US today in this regard (I can't see the relationship with the Gibson issue, as they knowingly broke a pre-existing law)."

this is where your knowledge of agenda 21 and its history is lacking. CITES is the older version of AGENDA 21. they are intertwined. look up bill clinton's executive order of January 19, 1996 EO#12986. it was actually soft-signed in 1994. there is no "Agenda 21 is non-binding, and must be locally legislated" as clinton's executive order blanketed the entire united states. the fact that you consider the retroactive posture of making instruments illegal to travel with when at the time they were made it was not illegal, should put up red flags as to how encompassing agenda 21 really is. and the clincher is that over time as more laws and statutes are layered over the other, it will look like "law" to the uninformed.

what happened to gibson was pure and simple an effect of agenda 21 and the "law" you claim they broke, didn't bring any problems to other luthiers who "donated" so as to be exempt from a raid and a court case. the fact that CITES and AGENDA 21 are being sneaked into the fabric of global governments reeks of fascism and any freedom loving person would be wise to note the frog boil.

infowars. com/gibson-guitars-new-line-is-a-middle-finger-to-holders-unjust-justice-department/
 
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But Goff, Agenda 21 is a UN action plan. Governments can choose to adopt it and legislate, or not. If your country is signatory, then they will legislate it, but each country decides whether to sign it or not. That's what I mean by "locally" (note I don't live in the US, although I did live there for some years).
 
But Goff, Agenda 21 is a UN action plan. Governments can choose to adopt it and legislate, or not. If your country is signatory, then they will legislate it, but each country decides whether to sign it or not. That's what I mean by "locally" (note I don't live in the US, although I did live there for some years).


ferk, you are being predictable and walking into this backwards. the united nations is the prognosticator of agenda 21. it is a rockefeller foundation plan while the rockefellers initiated, control, even donated the land under the building of the united nations. most countries have signed agenda 21. and those that have not are being presented with depleted uranium blasts cart blanche. you are scratching the surface with your information as the berg goes deeper than you realize.
 
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I am obviously not as informed as you are, but my point is of a different nature. Each country gets to legislate how they implement it in their own way. While the US imposes immediate bans and fines on musicians transporting 100 year-old bows with an ivory tip, France, Spain or Italy might be a bit more discerning and legislate these exceptions. That was my criticism to Uncle Sam.
 
This topic has arisen in different threads, but I thought it deserved a thread of its own, since it is so important to musical instrument makers and owners alike.

I just found this thread - thank you very much, Turnaround, for bringing this up and explaining it so well. And the Taylor video should be watched by everyone who plays any guitar - he explains it very well and with a conscience, too.

It obviously makes some people here uncomfortable, but every purchase we make casts a vote for what's behind it. We like to hide behind things like free choice, the market, decisions made long ago, etc., but when we buy something, we help fund every aspect of how it was made. And even when we buy used goods, we help create and support the market value of what is in them, which has a very real effect on the production and sales of raw materials.

In short, we all share responsibility for this. We all share responsibility for the entire world. Who wants to think about that? No one, it's uncomfortable. But it's truth.

I went through a time when I looked at the different types of woods being used in newer instruments and thought, "wow, glad I got my old bass when I did". But as time passes, I look at my guitars and wonder what stories are behind some of their materials. That ebony fingerboard on my old Godin fretless, on my old Ovation Magnum - where did they come from? How about the rosewood on my 1980 Yamaha? My 1995 Music Man Sterling? or even the "plain" woods, like the maples and alders - what produced those, at different times? And then there are the metals used in the electronics of my basses, amps, pedals...

It's good for thought. We fetishize things like our guitars, just as people do with furs, ivory goods, endangered animals stuffed and mounted in their living rooms, etc. Doesn't mean guitars are bad, it just means that everything is connected.

One more note: wanted to counter a mention of Fish & Wildlife personnel as goons early on in this thread. That may have been the experience of a specific person, but my dad was a career F&W biologist (in an area completely unrelated to this), and everyone I've ever known who worked for them was completely serious about their work, responsible, and doing it for the right reasons. There are abusers in every field of human endeavor, but I always hate to hear people extending that to smear all government employees (that wasn't the case here, but I've seen it elsewhere). My experience has been that the more profit involved in work, the more corruption.

But that's a whole other discussion. Thanks for bringing up the legal facts, and for the opportunity to discuss ethics in an area that too rarely considers it.
 
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This should probably be a sticky on this forum. Heaven forbid one of our TB brothers/sisters is going to a gig from the US into Canada and has the US border folks confiscate a pre-CBS Fender coming home from the gig. I wonder what on earth they even do with confiscated instruments. I can't think of a single destiny for such instruments that makes any sense at all, other than for bullying/harassment purposes.

Anyhow, here are a few more key links. You can get single issue documents to cover your instruments for travel in and out of the US. Does not look like any similar doc exists for international use; so, no idea how that works. Potential issues there.

US Government Cites-Musical Instruments (links under the "Personal Pets" heading LOL):
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

US Single documentation for an instrument permit application:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Wikipedia page on CITES, in general:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CITES


If one has an early Fender they would do well not to risk losing it to the border. I agree with the statement about bullying.
 
I think there are a lot of good points raised on both sides of the issue. I am fully behind conservation and taking steps to preserve the planet for future generations, but I also see issues with the implementation in some cases. We could do a much better job of respecting and policing ourselves than this, there are more respectful and proactive ways to approach a change in law than armed raids in Gibson's case, or random E-Bay/border seizures from honest people without warning.

The one group that does not belong in this conversation though are those who jump into a thread where a contentious policy or subject is being discussed, and then start calling folks 'victims' for putting the problem into words. Your shame isn't needed.

All I see in them is someone seeking a bit of smug look-down on others. A little self-righteousness to go with the morning coffee I guess.
 
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It bums me out that this regulatory scheme was executed so poorly. I'm a huge advocate for preservation (to a reasonable degree) and spend a lot of time advancing similar interests in the Great Lakes.

However, when regs are passed that are too convoluted and/or over broad, there's a very real chance they will do more harm than good - it fosters resentment towards what is, otherwise, a pretty laudable and agreeable end in the minds of most people. In the end, you may save a few trees, but you also make a lot of enemies that will come to resent any forms of land ethic. The net effect very well might not be any progress at all towards the policy the regs are purporting to advance.
Well said, and a lot of emotional opposition to conservation is because of exactly this...